Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Can a Federal Visionist ever have assurance? How does one know that one has done enough works of covenantal faithfulness in order to be justified on the last day?
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I commonly hear, "look to your baptism" as all the assurance that one needs in the FV scheme. If you are baptized you are in the covenant and therefore saved. These people despise introspection and self examination, so the normal means of seeking assurance do not apply.
"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant""by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."
In all seriousness though Steve Wilkins posits assurance in this way:
"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant""by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."
Thus temporary assurance can be obtained for every covenant (read 'baptized') member. Furthermore he later goes on to say that one must continue to 'abide in Christ' but as long as they do so they keep their assurance.
but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...
but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
So in other words, you're never *really* sure that you're saved, then?
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
In all seriousness though Steve Wilkins posits assurance in this way:
"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant""by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."
Thus temporary assurance can be obtained for every covenant (read 'baptized') member. Furthermore he later goes on to say that one must continue to 'abide in Christ' but as long as they do so they keep their assurance.
The FV view on works would concentrate on the revelation in James that faith without works is dead i.e. a faith that is not alone.
I commonly hear, "look to your baptism" as all the assurance that one needs in the FV scheme. If you are baptized you are in the covenant and therefore saved. These people despise introspection and self examination, so the normal means of seeking assurance do not apply.
but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.
but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
Certainly Max Weber popularized this position with his work "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Calvinism" but Mr. Weber was no Calvinist and as far as I know, wasn't even a professing Christian.
So you will need to demonstrate this point with citations from our creeds/catechisms etc. that this view of election is confessionally Reformed. It may be that some Pilgrim Fathers held to this theology but that is far from making it orthodox.
Assurance of salvation/election based on works not a 'maintenance' theology (contra the FV); it is a 'fruit theology'
The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.
Canons of Dordt, 1.12 (cf. Heidelberg Catechism, LD 32).
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
So in other words, you're never *really* sure that you're saved, then?
Don't ask me...here's the WCF, a much more reliable source.
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon 1) the divine truth of the promises of salvation,2) the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, 3) the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
LC Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him,[349] may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,[350] and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,[351] be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.[352]
This is not distinct to the FV is it?
This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).
Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.
Certainly Max Weber popularized this position with his work "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Calvinism" but Mr. Weber was no Calvinist and as far as I know, wasn't even a professing Christian.
So you will need to demonstrate this point with citations from our creeds/catechisms etc. that this view of election is confessionally Reformed. It may be that some Pilgrim Fathers held to this theology but that is far from making it orthodox.
Assurance of salvation/election based on works not a 'maintenance' theology (contra the FV); it is a 'fruit theology'
The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.
Canons of Dordt, 1.12 (cf. Heidelberg Catechism, LD 32).
I am not saying it is orthodox at all.
My point was simply that this way of thinking is not DISTINCT to the FV.
Don't ask me...here's the WCF, a much more reliable source.
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.
I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.
II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.
I am not saying it is orthodox at all.
My point was simply that this way of thinking is not DISTINCT to the FV.
I am not saying it is orthodox at all.
My point was simply that this way of thinking is not DISTINCT to the FV.
To clarify... you're not saying WHAT is orthodox at all?
I am not saying it is orthodox at all.
My point was simply that this way of thinking is not DISTINCT to the FV.
To clarify... you're not saying WHAT is orthodox at all?
My example given in post 8. That being we don't know wether we are elect or not, we should strive to do good and work hard and thus prove ourselves to be elect..."the puritan work ethic" mixed with assurance.
That is not orthodox, in my opinion, but many outside the FV for 100s of years held to such beliefs.
Thus looking to some sort of "works" for salvation is not distinct to the FV alone...but a large number of others within the reformed faith.
Can I interject in this (already underway) conversation?
I am not FV and have no sympathies whatsoever for it. I believe it to be a dangerous movement. In fact, I think all movements are best left for the bathroom.
But is there something wrong with seeking assurance in the promises signed and sealed by God at one's baptism?
The historic Reformed Form for the Baptism of Infants has a wonderful section at the beginning about those promises and what each person of the Trinity promises to do for those who are baptized.
The Canons of Dort speak about assurance in 5.10 and one of the grounds of assurance is "faith in the promises of God, which he has most abundantly revealed in his Word for our comfort."
So, if the promises of God are signed and sealed in baptism (HC QA 66), can we not speak of baptism as being part of our assurance? Not that baptism is our salvation, but that baptism is the sign and seal of God's promises, which, when met with faith, are our salvation. As a pastor, I have encouraged my people to consider the promises of God signed and sealed in baptism and, believing those promises, to have assurance and confidence.
What do you think?
To clarify... you're not saying WHAT is orthodox at all?
My example given in post 8. That being we don't know wether we are elect or not, we should strive to do good and work hard and thus prove ourselves to be elect..."the puritan work ethic" mixed with assurance.
That is not orthodox, in my opinion, but many outside the FV for 100s of years held to such beliefs.
Thus looking to some sort of "works" for salvation is not distinct to the FV alone...but a large number of others within the reformed faith.
For someone who values citations I would have thought you would have provided some. The only source you have provided for your claim is one paragraph within one chapter of the WCF. And that source, in my opinion, is slightly out of context.
Don't ask me...here's the WCF, a much more reliable source.
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
Perhaps you would do well to include the whole of chapter XVIII, rather than just this section? Assurance IS something that can be presently had - and is NOT grounded on works, as the previous sections of chapter XVIII which you neglected to quote clearly attest:
CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.
I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.
II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.
My example given in post 8. That being we don't know wether we are elect or not, we should strive to do good and work hard and thus prove ourselves to be elect..."the puritan work ethic" mixed with assurance.
That is not orthodox, in my opinion, but many outside the FV for 100s of years held to such beliefs.
Thus looking to some sort of "works" for salvation is not distinct to the FV alone...but a large number of others within the reformed faith.
For someone who values citations I would have thought you would have provided some. The only source you have provided for your claim is one paragraph within one chapter of the WCF. And that source, in my opinion, is slightly out of context.
I did not quote the wcf to support that claim...Why would I quote the wcf to support something that I already called unorthodox?
Sorry for being unclear.
I quoted the wcf to show that those who, along with the FV, hold to a position of works only as the basis for assurance are wrong...not to support thier claim...
my point was and is only this...The works/assurance position is not DISTINCT to the FV alone.
Is there anyone here that thinks that it is?