The Flood, 3000 BC or before.

Discussion in 'OT Historical Books' started by Pergamum, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    "Most of the time." "The ancients." "The moderns."

    Your statement is impossibly broad.
  2. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Another example of where Herodotus was doubted and then proved right was about the very construction of the pyramids:

    As usual, the Inquiries of Herodotus were dismissed for years. And then...archaeology suddenly confirms what was already known to the ancients and already told to us by Herodotus and other historians of the past.

    In general, the accounts of the ancients are ignored as fable or incorrect. general, these ancient historians are usually proved correct in due time.

    This is a good reason to have kids read the source material in school instead of what modern scholars think about the source material.

    And, just this week:

    "In the fifth century BC, the Greek historian Herodotus visited Egypt and wrote of unusual river boats on the Nile. Twenty-three lines of his Historia, the ancient world’s first great narrative history, are devoted to the intricate description of the construction of a “baris”.

    For centuries, scholars have argued over his account because there was no archaeological evidence that such ships ever existed. Now there is. A “fabulously preserved” wreck in the waters around the sunken port city of Thonis-Heracleion has revealed just how accurate the historian was."

    WAIT?!? Did someone else just say "Sunken port city" under the sea?
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  3. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    I absolutely agree. Too rarely do students touch primary sources, even in the universities. The secondary sources are dangerous nowadays, tainted as they are with Marxism or identity nonsense. (I have plenty of first-hand experience with this at a top university in Canada.)

    What I am saying is that we do not simply believe everything Herodotus (or any other historian) says. Evidence is needed. Knowing men exaggerate and lie, we approach with doubt.

    Very often it must be left to archaeology to supply the physical proof. Or perhaps there is no other mention in any other written sources. One mention in an ancient source does not truth make.

    Conversely, we ought not discount what the ancient historians say. The writings of Tacitus are a mine of knowledge of Gauls and Germans of his day. But what Tacitus says should be prefaced with "Tacitus says".

    Ancients had their biases, too. They had arguments to make and bones to pick. History is not neutral.

    Thanks for sharing those links, by the way. Great stuff.
  4. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    I finished reading Charles Hapgood's "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" last night. I skipped over a great deal of the mathematical technicals.

    Some ancient civilization mapped out the whole world before Babylon or Egypt or Sumeria, and back when Antarctica was not ice covered. They measured longitude in the unknown past, well before that calculation was rediscovered in the 1700s. Columbus had their old maps but due to the ignorance about longitude though he'd hit Asia.

    The author is typical old earth, but that's OK, I just read it knowing that it is all from soon after the flood when those first generations mapped the world. If you want historical evidence, check out the maps.
  5. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Charles Hapgood might not be the most reliable author of history. I haven't read anything by him, but the book you mention, Ancient Sea Kings, is, to put it delicately (or civilly), not the most conventional history.

    Columbus had their old maps? No, he didn't. No maps survive from the ancient world. We have Ptolemy's written account, though, in his Geography.

    Hapgood is not that. He thought the Acambaro figures proved humans and dinosaurs lived side by side. (They were a hoax, in any case.)ámbaro_figures

    Hapgood wasn't even Christian, so it's odd to call him a proponent of "typical old earth" views. He wrote an entire book about the messages he received, via a medium, form certain famous dead people, as well as, for good measure, the Hindu god Vishnu. Oh, and Jesus.

    Hapgood's book is hypothesis, not evidence. The maps presented are from the 16th century A.D. Even if they are based on certain ancient maps, that is hardly conclusive, since, as I've said, there's no reason to assume ancient people were somehow right on every point of cartography, and still there should be allowance for errors in transmission.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  6. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Yes. That is a good book.

    I believe the Megalithic cultures are all related, and the Megaliths were star maps,

    (as the patterns of the heavens is above, so below as well...we see this in Scripture as well. The Pyramids lined up. There were three stars in Orion's Belt, three pyramids which lined up. That fertile plain was a mirror of the heavens.

    ...and the Hebrew tabernacle was also supposed to be a pattern of the heavens. For every holy thing, the kingdoms of the world have a satanic imitation, they subvert the truth and twist it a bit).


    We are finally awakening to the fact that our ancient ancestors were our intellectual superiors. We merely stand on their shoulders.

    This so confuses modern man that he has to make theories of alien intervention to be preferred before he will believe that the first generations of mankind were better than us, and us degraded.

    The Ancient Aliens theory is a result of man seeing part of the truth but not being able to believe the bible and running to other theories. The ancients were brilliant, therefore, ET must have helped them. Of course, the Jewish traditions do say that the fallan angels did help them, too.

    Instead of evolution pushing forward, the Creation groans and degrades. I have studied out this issue because I have people keep calling my tribe "primitive" - but the tribe I work with is likely several hundred years old at very most (they split and divide and split and divide until they don't even really make their own music).

    These tribes are not primitive...they are merely degraded and have fallen into barbarity.

    Sumer in 2200 BC was more technologically advanced than some tribes of interior Africa and Melanesia in the 20th Century.


    p.s. Please research ancient "Ley Lines" if the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings intrigued you. These Ley Lines, such as found in England, show how well the ancients mapped vast landscapes.

    For example: Research the St Michael's Ley, one of the longest, aligned along the path of the sun on 8 May (The feast day of St. Michael). It passes through several megalithic sites before it reaches "Glastonbury, (artificially shaped to follow the direction of the ley), and then on to the Avebury/Silbury complex, both significant English landscape features." I believe the later Catholic faith used pre-existing astronomical knowledge, probably taken from the Druids (who might have had a connection with Egypt and it's knowledge/religion). For those who scoff at me, you can research how most Western men have the same DNA as found in many pharoah's, who sometimes had red hair, and there is also the myth/tradition of Queen Scota, the daughter of the pharoah and the Egyptian mother of the Scottish people.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  7. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    You deny that humans and dinosaurs walked side by side?

    The maps mentioned in the book are copies and intepretations of older maps. Your argument is like saying the bible isn't true because we don't have the originals. Hapgood's Christian faith is not consequential.

    The construction of many ancient megaliths and the pyramids were very precise. There was a sacred math involved and one that proves that the ancients knew the roundness of the earth, it's measurement, and even its rotation and the precession of the equinoxes. This math was later passed on to Pythagoras and basically became a math cult.

    The ancients even used frequencies in their construction so that the sound would vibrate at a certain resonance. This has led to some New Age theories, but the basic fact seems true, that the ancients studied resonance, sound, harmonies, frequencies as well, and saw that some were harmful or hurtful to the health of the human body.
    "Ancient Man Used “Super-Acoustics” to Alter Consciousness (... and speak with the dead?)"

    They sat and chanted and took drugs in these vaults as part of their religion.

    Jerusalem Blade created a post about the relationship with drugs and demons. He focused on pot and weakened his argument (though they are cultivating stronger strains now), but hallucinogenic drugs have been used by ancients and to speak with spirits and modern day drug users speak of the "machine elves" who talk to them on a trip.
  8. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    I said no such thing. I am a young earth creationist. I did point out, however, that Hapgood was apparently not an old earth type.

    Not at all. Unless you believe ancient maps (and Herodotus?) to be Holy Scripture.

    You're right. I said, "Hapgood wasn't even Christian, so it's odd to call him a proponent of 'typical old earth' views."




    OK, now we've gone off topic.
  9. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    It would be nice to see a map of these purported ley lines that actually include all the rest of the cathedrals that could have been on a line. As it is, it looks like someone took a linear regression and threw out all the points outside a certain deviation.
  10. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    From a blog:

    "The term “ley lines” is believed to have been coined by British amateur archeologist Alfred Watkins to describe the strange alignment of ancient significant places – both manmade and natural – in straight lines. After confirming his theory with a map, he described what he saw:

    The apparent existence of numerous ancient straight trackways formed a network of intersecting straight lines stretching from one end of Britain to the other.

    He called them “ley lines” because the names of many of the places crossed by them ended in “ley.” Watkins claimed the ley lines were aligned with the sun at the solstices and that gave them extra credibility and possible spiritual significance."

    Scientists have sought to bdeunk the lines by appealing to other "coincidences" such as producing aligned maps of Woolworth stores. But if towns developed along roads, which developed along previous roads, which developed along established lines of pagan sites, then many stores can also be found to be aligned as well because they are in towns (which are aligned along modern roads, which are aligned along previous roads often, which are aligned along established lines of pagan sites).
  11. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    Hey Perg.

    I've read about Ley lines a while ago and as I recall they were related to magnetic force lines. But I'll have to look it up.

    Did you read "Secrets of the Lost Races"? Great book. The archaeology of ooparts- out of place tech in old strata layers, even in seams of coal. The ancients had airplanes, rockets, nuclear power (or bombs), and some sort of lost knowledge ability to lift huge blocks of stone. Noah had electric lights on the ark.

    It is a great pity that evolutionary theory has deluded the masses into thinking we've been slowly evolving technology, as opposed to enormous progress before the flood and then up until at least Babel.

    I also enjoyed Chris Dunn's book on Giza, Power Plant. He sure makes a good case on how the pyramid harnessed energy and used it. Burial tomb......LOL.

    Hope you are feeling better!
  12. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    Oh, I read up on ley lines, I understand how they can seem compelling, but as an engineer who works with data and particularly stochastic (random) systems, I could generate you a random scatterplot and start connecting lines and lo and behold, with a course enough resolution, you'd start seeing patterns appear in the lines.

    It's just not compelling to me, particularly when they throw out the data that doesn't fit the line.
  13. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    The tricky thing about these theories is lack of any evidence.
  14. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    I think some books take things too far.

    But I do think the ancients were advanced.

    As for moving huge blocks of stone, I have read those theories of soound-wave or magnetic help, or possibly just special sand as a lubricant to help them slide.

    There does seem to be the possibility of ancient lighting/electricity. I mean, many homeschooling kids have lit up bulbs with potatoes or lemons and wiring, right?

    I also believe Tesla might have produced a small earthquake with his experiments.

    I do not think there were ancient airplanes, but I do think there were very sea-worthy boats to make oceanic voyages (not necessarily big, but sturdy). I believe the Ancient Sea Kings were the sons and grandsons of Noah (they obviously has some knowledge of boat-building).

    I believe in Atlantis.

    The wisdom of the ancients primarily consisted of precise mathematics and knowledge of the globe that was only rediscovered later. They all knew the earth was round and the Pyramid was a scale model of a hemisphere of the earth. They knew the diameter of the earth even.

    The lies we learned in school about Columbus have misled many, he sailed on a mistaken knowledge that the globe was smaller than the ancient accounts.

    Jewish tradition says the fallen angels gave us some of this knowledge. And I think Noah schooled his sons and took the command to take dominion over the earth seriously and trained his children in these things.

    I believe the Ancient Alien theory is false...but not silly. They are trying to reconcile some strange truths. Replace Alien with demon or super-smart son of Noah and and throw out all talk of aliens and starships and then we can move forward.

    One example is the knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes which is extremely difficult to observe. If the path of a certain star moves exceedingly slow and almost imperceptibly through the sky over thousands of years, it is possible that humans derived this knowledge from divine or supernatural sources. The Sumerians believed this, of course.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  15. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Yes, there is a possibility of confirmation bias.

    But the ancient druids maintained ley lines in their religion. Paths of the stars, sun, and moon were important to them and following these paths on key dates could have produced some of the very straight paths that migh have lined up with the sun, moon, or the star during annual religious pilgrimages of their faithful.
  16. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    What is your source for this? I'm somewhat versed in the Celts and I have always understood that precious little is known about druidic religion.

    Many cultures, though, even ones we might consider barbaric, have tracked the sun, moon and stars and aligned their buildings and practices to them.
  17. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Julius Caesar wrote that the Druids, "hold long discussions about the heavenly bodies and their movements, the size of the universe and the Earth, and the physical constitution of the world, and the power and properties of the gods; and they instruct young men in all these subjects."

    Caesar continues, "The Celts all claim to be descended from the god of the underworld whom they call Father Dis. For this reason they measure time not by the day but by nights [and by Lunar months], and in celebrating birthdays, the first of the month and New Year's Day, they go on the principle that the day begins after the end of night."

    It is common knowledge that the Druid's had Sun ceremonies and tracked the times, made monuments to be used in conjunction with their equinoxes and solstices. For example, "Stonehenge is carefully aligned on a sight-line that points to the winter solstice sunset." Such lines were important to the druids and sacred sites were built along them.
  18. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    In Post #75, you said,
    In Post #77, you said,
    You have merely reasserted your assertion without a source. Caesar has nothing to say about ley lines.

    And Stonehenge is Pre-Celtic.
  19. G

    G Puritan Board Junior

    Well @JimmyH , I thought we might get more manuscript discussion, but it looks like we have gotten a little of this:

    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  20. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Here is the BBC:

    "Ley lines, also known as "leys" and "dragon lines" are phenomena most people have heard of but few really understand. Indeed it would be fair to say that no-one understands them fully, as they remain largely unexplained.

    Are there ley lines in Gloucestershire? If so, do they really 'pass through' allegedly haunted places?

    From what we do know, a ley line seems to be a straight line that carries an altered form of the earth's magnetic field, however it is proving difficult to define that power even to this day.

    It has been claimed that birds, fish and animals use them as 'compasses', helping them find direction back to breeding grounds and to warmer climates during winter months. They have also been said to be vast prehistoric trade routes.

    An article in New Scientist magazine, published in 1987, suggested that species as diverse as pigeons, whales, bees and even bacteria can navigate using the earth's magnetic field.

    It is thought that a tissue containing a substance called magnetite is responsible for this.

    Magnetite enables living creatures to sense magnetic changes and has been found in human tissue linked to the ethmoid bone in the front of the skull."

    The ancients took dominion over the earth by mapping it and placing sites at specific points, often for astronomical reasons. And most archeo-astronomy had a religious element, which is likely if it was pased deon from the very ancient onees who began to be perceived as God (Ham as Chronos and Japehth as Poseidon, etc).

    Then there is this:

    "They were able to travel between settlements with pinpoint accuracy thanks to a complex network of hilltop monuments.

    These covered much of southern England and Wales and included now famous landmarks such as Stonehenge and The Mount.

    New research suggests that they were built on a connecting grid of isosceles triangles that 'point' to the next site.

    Many are 100 miles or more away, but GPS co-ordinates show all are accurate to within 100 metres.

    This provided a simple way for ancient Britons to navigate successfully from A to B without the need for maps.

    According to historian and writer Tom Brooks, the findings show that Britain's Stone Age ancestors were ''sophisticated engineers'' and far from a barbaric race."

    Also check out the Belinus Line which mapped Britain north and south.
  21. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Where have aliens been mentioned here?
  22. JimmyH

    JimmyH Puritan Board Junior

  23. G

    G Puritan Board Junior

  24. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    See the end of the article:

    "This article is user-generated content (ie. external contribution) expressing a personal opinion, not the views of BBC Gloucestershire."

    So, just some guy with ideas of paranormal activity. Three people, actually, all "paranormal investigators" or something along those lines.

    What does this have to do with ley lines, or with anything we've been discussing?

    By the way, magnetic fields are real, and they are a plausible explanation for animal migrations. But they have nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.

    Also, you are right in saying that archaeoastronomy involves a religious element. Indeed, astronomy/astrology has historically been inseparable from religion (until quite recently, actually). But, once again, that really has nothing to do with this business about ley lines. Or anything else.

    What I'm seeing so far is that ley lines are very popular among enthusiasts of supposed paranormal activity. What I'm not seeing is any proof.
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