The Hebrews warning passages - a Credo explanation

[Pergamum]

Hello credos,


In debating baptism regarding just who it is who are members of the New Covenant, paedobaptists often bring up the Hebrews warning passages.


Could any credo tackle these one by one and give a credobaptist explanation for each?


Paedos, I don't mind hearing your rebuttals, but I would love for the credos to answer first.

 

[KMK]

Paedos, I don't mind hearing your rebuttals, but I would love for the credos to answer first.

Perg, you posted this in the Credo-only Forum which means Paedos cannot answer. Do you want me to move it to the Baptism Forum?

 

[Pergamum]

Paedos, I don't mind hearing your rebuttals, but I would love for the credos to answer first.

Perg, you posted this in the Credo-only Forum which means Paedos cannot answer. Do you want me to move it to the Baptism Forum?

I'm not sure. I'd love for credos to answer first and then I'd love to toss this football back to paedos to reply. Can this post be moved in a day or two after credos have answerred?

 

[Pergamum]

bump

 

[Iconoclast]

perg, i had logged in but somehow my post got deleted, i will try and recover it,

 

[Iconoclast]

I lost the longer post...will try to re-create a thumbnail of it;
Hebrews 2 :1-4 an general warning not to drift past the safe harbor of the apostolic witness,confirmed by the signs of the apostles. God has spoken with finality...In Son.
Hebrews 3 Christ superior to Moses
Moses [the law] was faithful[as a schoolmaster]...but Joshua[Jesus,full of grace and truth] led into the promised land
the warning is not to use law keeping as a basis to merit salvation, the law was not given for that purpose.
Moses and the Israelites were to be the covenant son ex4:22

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

But many among the physical nation failed to keep the terms of the covenant that they professed they would keep.
Jesus is the greater than Moses,over the whole house...He is the True covenant Son..the true Israel of God. The New Exodus Mt2:15 and us in Him.
those given to The Son in the Covenant of redemption, are shown to be the very same as those who are in the covenant of grace in the New Covenant.
The reality is greater than the type....not like the covenant I made heb8

Even though many seperate the COR from the COG.....the fact remains that those whom the Father gave to the Son before the world was,,,turn out to be one and the same in the New Jerusalem. It is fixed and certain. to say that the COR was only between the Father and Son does not change who the true covenant children are Heb2:9-16

In ot Israel among the physical nation ,many died without saving faith with an evil heart of unbelief....the warning of Hebrews 4 is that being raised in a home with believing parents, or assembling among the people of God without being born from above will not profit . Each person must examine themselves as to where they stand before God, or perish like the false Israelites did.

Heb 6:1-8 ,9-20
Apostates.....it is impossible to renew them ,if having fallen away.
thorns and briers in every case in the Ot spoke of rebellious apostates
ezk2:6

And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house

Isa 10:17

And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day

the contrast is made with the remainder of Hebrews 6:9-20.
the apostates are contrasted with those who are part of the Eternal Covenant of Grace.

The padeos covenant breaker is our false professor. In either case they were void of the Spirit and never really part of the true people of God,although they for a time assembled alongside the true believers,described in Hebrews 3:1 as

1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling...this is the church, if you cannot be described this way in the New Covenant, you are not part of the church,but instead are described as false brethren, those who went out from us, those who in works deny Him.

Heb10
In hebrews 10:14-25 the condition of true professors is described..in contrast to those who despise Christ and the blood of His cross.

who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Jesus identified with His covenant people in the Covenant of Redemption, has accomplished that redemption.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 2 spoke of this...these are the true covenant children,all the elect given to the Son by the Father...again in hebrews 10:14

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

I am going to post this now before i lose another post, could not rescue my original post

 

[Pergamum]

Man, that post may have been the DEFINITIVE answer that would have converted every paedobaptist to our position, too!

 

[Iconoclast]

Man, that post may have been the DEFINITIVE answer that would have converted every paedobaptist to our position, too!

No...lol..it also was a thumbnail post,but i did try to address some of the terms the padeos want to hear addressed
God will judge His people, esau sold his birthright,the gospel was preached to us as well as unto them....i just type so slow it is pathetic, but when they fire back, we can re-address it.
Apostates and false professors are one and the same. They are not born of God, they go to judgment, they hinder the work of God before they go to judgment. when I read padeo writers, speak of covenant breakers, I just translate it to false professors,1jn 2:19

ps. For a definitve answer i have not seen any padeo answer the Spirit baptism issue of Romans 6 honestly....without double talking around it

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Let me begin by saying that I believe that the interpretive difficulty posed by these passages is no small problem. They are a challenge for every student of God's Word and that they have vexed many a great saint through the ages. So, my few remarks are submitted with the utmost humility.

First of all, I believe the warning passages are to believers. For one, the author identifies with his audience with the pronouns "us" and "we" (Heb. 2:1; 3:12; 6:1; 10:26; 12:25). Secondly, his language seems to assume a regenerate audience (Heb. 6:1, 3-5, 9; 10:30b). Thirdly, at no point does the author indicate that he is only addressing a small, unregenerate group within his larger audience. All indicators are that his warnings are for every recipient of the letter. Lastly, I do not believe the judgment spoken of in these texts refers to damnation but rather the temporal judgment of God on his people, which is exactly what Hebrews 10:30b states! And this isn't the only place that we are told that God judges his Covenant people. There are many examples of this in the New Testament (cf. Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 1:1-5; 11:27-30; 1 John 5:16-17).

Paedobaptists would say that these warnings are to those unregenerate members in the "covenant community" however, there is no indication that the authors audience or a portion of that audience is unregenerate - to the contrary, he affirms them as brethren and as God's "people." And their covenant relationship with God forms the foundation of his warnings. Paedobaptism in my humble estimation superimposes a two-tier Covenant structure (true believers and mere professors) that is nowhere taught in Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

First of all, I believe the warning passages are to believers. For one, the author identifies with his audience with the pronouns "us" and "we" (Heb. 2:1; 3:12; 6:1; 10:26; 12:25). Secondly, his language seems to assume a regenerate audience (Heb. 6:1, 3-5, 9; 10:30b). Thirdly, at no point does the author indicate that he is only addressing a small, unregenerate group within his larger audience. All indicators are that his warnings are for every recipient of the letter. Lastly, I do not believe the judgment spoken of in these texts refers to damnation but rather the temporal judgment of God on his people, which is exactly what Hebrews 10:30b states! And this isn't the only place that we are told that God judges his Covenant people. There are many examples of this in the New Testament (cf. Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 1:1-5; 11:27-30; 1 John 5:16-17).

Paedobaptists would say that these warnings are to those unregenerate members in the "covenant community" however, there is no indication that the authors audience or a portion of that audience is unregenerate - to the contrary, he affirms them as brethren and as God's "people." And their covenant relationship with God forms the foundation of his warnings.

That would help explain why all of the "Let us" passages appear in close proximity to the warnings
22Let us draw near
23Let us hold fast
Let us therefore fear
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace
13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

But the heb10:30 passage ...isn't it speaking of the covenant curses coming upon Israel spoken of from Deut28-32 particularly

34Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

I thought this was more in line with Mt21:43?

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Indeed Br. Anthony!

 

[TomVols]

This is very helpful and informative.

 

[Pergamum]

So these are injunctions to believers not to fall away, even though believers will not fall away?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is some other material sent to me By Pastor Downing as part of an outline he worked through years ago;

• To warn against apostasy. The 5 major warnings are found in 2:1–4; 3:7–4:13; 5:11–6:20; 10:26–31; 12:12–29:
Do not Drift! (2:1–4)
Do not Disbelieve! (3:6b–4:13)
Do not Degenerate! (5:11–6:20)
Do not Despise! (10:26–31)
Do not Defile! (12:12–17)
Observe: While it is true that a true believer cannot apostatize, the mere professing Christian certainly may and probably will! This epistle emphasizes this possibility with repeated urgency!
Observe: Our presuppositions may lead us into error in biblical interpretation. Those who do not understand these warnings, hold that the readers were Jews who were not yet Christians and had to continue on to true conversion rather than professing believers who were being warned about the awful possibility of apostasy.

2. The First Warning: Do not Drift...! (2:1–4).
Because the Son is greater than the angels, the truth of the Gospel greater than the old revelation, and the witness of God greater than that of the old covenant, the judgment for neglecting or leaving such truth must be infinitely greater!
Note the statement “Lest at any time we should let them slip.” (mh,pote pararuw/men, 2 aor. subj. pass. from pararre,w, to flow past or by). “Lest we should drift past [away].
2. The Second Warning: Do not Disbelieve...! (3:6b–4:13).
The failure of the first generation to enter the Land of Promise was due to a lack of faith. Disbelief led to disobedience. These Believers are to enter into the rest of faith.
2. The Third Warning: Do not Degenerate...! (5:11–6:20).
This very stern warning reveals the utter hopelessness that necessarily attends spiritual apostasy from the truth of the Gospel. Cf. 6:4–6, “For it is impossible....If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance...” (VAdu,naton ga..r…kai. parapeso,ntaj(pa,lin avnakaini,zein eivj meta,noian, 2. aor. ptc.), “having fallen away.”
He states, however, that he is persuaded that his readers are truly saved, although he further exhorts them to diligence and then gives them some consolation in the faithfulness of God (6:7–20).
The Fourth Warning: Do not Despise...! (10:26–31).
This warning is against a willful or determined turning from the truth. It is apostasy to turn from the Gospel and its finality. If under the Old Covenant, such punishment was “without mercy,” how much greater and final the judgment of those who turn from the Gospel!
The Fifth Warning: Do not Defile...! (12:12–17).
Because Divine discipline is necessary and without exception, the readers must brace themselves for the inevitable hardships of pursuing peace and holiness (12:12–14).
They are further warned not be found graceless, immoral or profane. The example of Esau is given as one who, for momentary self–gratification and ease, forever lost his birthright, although he sought to change his father’s mind with great anguish (12:15–17. Cf. Gen. 25:21–34; 27:30–40).

---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

So these are injunctions to believers not to fall away, even though believers will not fall away?

I think in every case the warning is given in contrast to the conduct of true believers exercising saving faith.
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


King James Version (KJV)
9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

So these are injunctions to believers not to fall away, even though believers will not fall away?

Thomas Schreiner (Professor of New Testament Interpretation at the SBTS) would say Yes! And point to Acts 27 to make his point. In Acts 27 Paul is on a ship bound for Italy which is caught in a terrible storm. The ship and crew are in danger of being lost. However, God promises Paul that none of the crew will be lost (Acts 27:21-25). He communicates the certanty of the "salvation" with the admonition to "bee of good cheer."

However, later on a curious thing happens. The ship is in danger of being lost. Some of the mariners seek to escape by a boat tied to the ship. Paul then makes an amazing statement - "Except these [men] abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved" (v. 31). Forthwith the mariners cut loose the boat and the ship is saved. But why would Paul say such a thing knowing that God has unconditionally promised the survival of the crew? Schreiner argues that Paul's warning serves as a means of fulfilling the promise of God and sees the warning passages of Hebrews in just that same light.

But one also may conclude that the "falling away" here is not speaking of a loss of one's salvation or apostasy but rather a backsliding especially since the Greek word for apostasy is not employed. In that case, "falling away" is discriptve of the believers back-slidden state.

 

[Iconoclast]

Because the writer is using Old covenant Israel as an example to the NT church as in 1cor10.... these passages can very easily fit the padeo model that they offer for covenant continuity because the appeal of the warnings is looking to Physical Israel and there historical relationship to God's covenant.
If the New Covenant church is just like The Old Covenant people, we as new covenant believers are only granted the right to be old covenant saints in the Nt time.
We must keep physical signs which only point to potential spiritual realities. Yet Hebrews 8 ;

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

An appeal to Romans 11 would raise the question.....if God broke off unbelieving Israelites because of unbelief.....who is grafted in? Believing gentiles, or believing gentiles,and their unbelieving children? Gentiles as a whole are not grafted in, only believing gentiles among the nations are.
The padeo just plugs us in to these passages and maintains the The new covenant is just like the old, so unsaved persons are spoken of as in covenant but not savingly...so a two tier system is perpetuated. The Hebrews passages,along with 1 cor 10 offer the strongest texts for the padeo view...if you ignore Romans 6,and Col2:11-12....speaking of regenerate persons through Spirit baptism applied at regeneration.

 

[Pergamum]

Yes, this issue seems to be a poaedo strong point and they make many good points.

 

[bug]

So these are injunctions to believers not to fall away, even though believers will not fall away?

Doesn't God use means?

Just as he uses his word to convert the elect, he also uses it to preserve the elect.

 

[Kim G]

It seems to me that the paedos and credos are closer in interpretation than one might think. Both believe that the warnings are to those who are outwardly part of God's covenant people (paedos=baptism; credo=profession of faith and baptism). The falling away applies to those who are outwardly part of the covenant but are not inwardly believing people.

At least, that's how I've understood it.

 

[Iconoclast]

So these are injunctions to believers not to fall away, even though believers will not fall away?

Doesn't God use means?

Just as he uses his word to convert the elect, he also uses it to preserve the elect.

Even the apostle Paul who writes about election and predestination also writes this in 1 cor9:

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

While the objective truth of redemption accomplished is certain,our subjective enjoyment or lack thereof will vary as we battle to mortify sin.
The same Paul who wrote romans 8and 9 also wrote romans 7.....and this in 2cor13:

5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

The warnings for a believer almost function as the 10 commandments do for us.We have a new relationship to them if we are found In Christ......yet we know that God will continue to work in and through true believers. It happens in real time however,and we have this treasure in earthen vessels...so we do not presume, but we believe God.