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Wow! What do you think, Ivan?
I like how he ends it: "Grieving over the status quo. Still holding to the Fives!"
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago..
I truly believe that numerous churches will soon be leaving the SBC. People are going to put up with extreme negativity and verbal persecution only for so long.
I have two things to say.
First, Voddie Bauchman gave one of the best youth conferences I have ever been to when I was growing up. I really hung on to every word he said.
Second, I truly believe that numerous churches will soon be leaving the SBC. People are going to put up with extreme negativity and verbal persecution only for so long. There is a double standard here.
For example at my last church my pastor told me how when he came to the church it was nearly dead because the previous pastor was a Calvinist. But when my pastor ran the church into the ground to the point that they had to sell everything and be absorbed by another local Baptist church he blamed it on the apostate church and just more proof that God was coming back soon.
I had a brother in Christ tell me that if he saw me walking down the street, he would turn and walk the other way. I was considered useless to him.
Even our colleges are getting bad. I was told on two separate occassions from my professor that I was not allowed to discuss predestination. This blew my mind because both times we were suppose to be reading and writing about soteriology. I am not sure how other seminaries are treating Reformed guys, but Liberty ain't to nice.
If this is the type of onslaught that we are going to receive over and over again, then why stick around? I believe that the more the ARBCA gains tractions, then the more churches will leave the SBC and join.
well eventually the old guys will die off and more young guys will come in, so we could see the numbers increase.
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago. More likely at this point I suspect that even those strongly opposed to it realize that it is here to stay, although they may wish to curb its influence. There were apparently a few inflammatory remarks made at the John 3:16 conf. but overall I understand that the mood was more irenic than many would have suspected and at least some of the speakers acknowledged the Calvinistic roots of the SBC.
But there is no doubt that being an outspoken Calvinist is generally not the way to win friends and influence people in the SBC today.
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago. More likely at this point I suspect that even those strongly opposed to it realize that it is here to stay, although they may wish to curb its influence. There were apparently a few inflammatory remarks made at the John 3:16 conf. but overall I understand that the mood was more irenic than many would have suspected and at least some of the speakers acknowledged the Calvinistic roots of the SBC.
But there is no doubt that being an outspoken Calvinist is generally not the way to win friends and influence people in the SBC today.
I am not so sure, but I have not been in the SBC for many years. I do know that I have many friends (at least 1/2 dozen) who are at NOBTS or SBS in KY seeking MDiv's or ThM's, and they are all Mohler-esque 4-pointers. Not truly Calvinist nor Reformed in my opinion, but VERY much closer than the typical SBC toleration level. Piperian theology is very popular among the younger SBC types...it's a good start.
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago. More likely at this point I suspect that even those strongly opposed to it realize that it is here to stay, although they may wish to curb its influence. There were apparently a few inflammatory remarks made at the John 3:16 conf. but overall I understand that the mood was more irenic than many would have suspected and at least some of the speakers acknowledged the Calvinistic roots of the SBC.
But there is no doubt that being an outspoken Calvinist is generally not the way to win friends and influence people in the SBC today.
I am not so sure, but I have not been in the SBC for many years. I do know that I have many friends (at least 1/2 dozen) who are at NOBTS or SBS in KY seeking MDiv's or ThM's, and they are all Mohler-esque 4-pointers. Not truly Calvinist nor Reformed in my opinion, but VERY much closer than the typical SBC toleration level. Piperian theology is very popular among the younger SBC types...it's a good start.
Maybe you guys are having a bit more faith than I am, but I just see that the Calvinist contingent in the SBC (however big or small it may be) will eventually up and leave if the SBC continues to be so anti-Calvinistic. Maybe not the ARBCA, but they will go somewhere. Baptists have a history of splitting so I cannot see why the trend would stop now.
I do agree with your assessment of Calvinistic Baptist churches not adhering to the LBC completely. I do see churches that are along the lines of MacArthur's church. They are Calvinistic, but still dispensational.
Maybe you guys are having a bit more faith than I am, but I just see that the Calvinist contingent in the SBC (however big or small it may be) will eventually up and leave if the SBC continues to be so anti-Calvinistic. Maybe not the ARBCA, but they will go somewhere. Baptists have a history of splitting so I cannot see why the trend would stop now.
I do agree with your assessment of Calvinistic Baptist churches not adhering to the LBC completely. I do see churches that are along the lines of MacArthur's church. They are Calvinistic, but still dispensational.
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago.
I like how he ends it: "Grieving over the status quo. Still holding to the Fives!"
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago.
The antagonism may not be "growing" but is it growing louder?
There is enough antagonism against Calvinism that Southwestern, New Orleans, and Midwestern seminaries all sponsored the John 3:16 conference...
Pilgrim,
Why do you say Dr. Moore is not a Calvinist? I assume you are defining "Calvinist" as one who holds to all 5 points?
There is enough antagonism against Calvinism that Southwestern, New Orleans, and Midwestern seminaries all sponsored the John 3:16 conference...
Pilgrim,
Why do you say Dr. Moore is not a Calvinist? I assume you are defining "Calvinist" as one who holds to all 5 points?
There is enough antagonism against Calvinism that Southwestern, New Orleans, and Midwestern seminaries all sponsored the John 3:16 conference...
Pilgrim,
Why do you say Dr. Moore is not a Calvinist? I assume you are defining "Calvinist" as one who holds to all 5 points?
Aren't there three SBC presidents as well? Patterson, Stanley, and the current one?
For people on the PB, folks like Moore aren't Calvinists... he'd even deny it - because he's informed... but to folks in the SBC... he sure IS a Calvinist. If he affirmed limited atonement they'd just call him a hyper-Calvinist... silly, yes... but that's how it is.
There was a lot of hostility from all sides when I was at Southern... but lo and behold, the school is still growing in spite of it! However, when I first got there some of the profs were quite outspoken about their Calvinism. By the time I graduated, things had calmed substantially.
During my time in seminary there, folks would interview me for various church positions, and virtually always one of the first questions was, "Are you one of them Calvinists?" After that question, the interview would end abruptly. I finally stopped having interviews.
However, I don't think that the Calvinists in the SBC will ever leave in mass unless they are forced out. The reason is that, like Erasmus, they don't think the SBC is all that bad... and they want to stick around to be "salt and light."
Whether the Calvinists in the SBC will admit it is uncertain, but they are more committed to being Southern Baptists than might be healthy. This is evidenced in the fact that many of these same folks were faithfully SBC even prior to the conservative resurgency. In fact, I asked one of my profs who obtained his PhD from Southern in the mid '80s and he was talking about how tough it was to be a conservative in those days... well, I asked him, "As a conservative, what on earth drew you to a liberal school. If you wanted a liberal education, why not go to a Harvard or a Yale or a Princeton and at least get a highly esteemed name on your resume. If you wanted a solid theological education, there were many good schools you could have attended at that time which were solidly conservative. Why Southern?" His response was to look at me like, "Are you serious?" And he said, "Becuase I'm a Southern Baptist through and through."
It is that loyalty to a denomination that has kept conservatives in the PCUSA or UMC or even the ELCA well past when they should have left. (Not saying the SBC is currently equivilant to any of those... but still...)
So anyway, there is a good bit of old-fashioned name brand loyalty at play. That loyalty will keep the majority of the SBC's Calvinists faithfully contributing to the IMB, NAMB, etc... (even though these organizations define many points of theology in fundamentally different ways than do these Calvinists...) And many of the Calvinists in the SBC will likely continue to do so until the (unlikely to come) point in time when they're given the boot.
I'm not convinced that there is a "growing antagonism" toward Calvinism in the SBC. Antagonism is certainly there, but I don't know that it is growing compared to a few years ago.
The antagonism may not be "growing" but is it growing louder?
your mileage may vary but my perception is that there were more inflammatory remarks made by leaders a few years ago than you see now. For example, Johnny Hunt seems to have toned down his rhetoric considerably recently. How much of that is attributable to his election as SBC President I don't know. Of course I am mainly judging from things I've seen by various seminary professors and other leaders. I can't really gauge the attitudes of church members, deacons, pastors, etc. Overall I think it's best to focus on our own churches and ministry and not be consumed by what others may be saying. But if one is encountering opposition in their church or school that's obviously a much different situation.
The vehemence of some of the blog posts on the Calvinistic side in my opinion sometimes have a tendency to generate more heat than light as well.