The Second Commandment - Paul and Fred discussing

[pastorway]

This thread is for Paul Manata and Fred Greco to discuss the Second Commandment. This thread is only for them - if you are not Paul or Fred then consider this a read only thread.

If anyone else other than Fred or Paul posts in this thread I will delete the post.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss points made in the discussion.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Super Admin -
Phillip

[Edited on 12-17-04 by pastorway]

 

[fredtgreco]

Yes, I am talking about the grouping of the 10 commandments. I don't want to assume, but you do take the division as set forth in the Catechisms, don't you (i.e. do not steal is the 8th commandment, do not bear false witness is the 9th, etc)?

If so, why do you think that they are divided that way?

 

[fredtgreco]

Sorry. Trying to start at the ground level - but I'm being obtuse!

There are 10 commandments.

Everybody agrees on that. For the Reformed they are:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.


For the Romanists (and alsos Lutherans) they are:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4. Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.

5. Thou shalt not kill.

6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife,

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

My question is: who is right? And why?

 

[fredtgreco]

Good. So does the 1st commandment only prohibit worshipping false gods in certain ways? Or is it all-inclusive?

 

[fredtgreco]

Reformed. In other words, what is prohibited in your mind in the 1st commandment? What is commanded?

For shorthand, do you agree with the Larger Catechism?

WLC 104 What are the duties required in the first commandment? A. The duties required in the first commandment are, the knowing and acknowledging of God to be the only true God, and our God;(1) and to worship and glorify him accordingly,(2) by thinking,(3) meditating,(4) remembering,(5) highly esteeming,(6) honouring,(7) adoring,(8) choosing,(9) loving,(10) desiring,(11) fearing of him;(12) believing him;(13) trusting,(14) hoping,(15) delighting,(16) rejoicing in him;(17) being zealous for him;(18) calling upon him, giving all praise and thanks,(19) and yielding all obedience and submission to him with the whole man;(20) being careful in all things to please him,(21) and sorrowful when in any thing he is offended;(22) and walking humbly with him.(23)

(1)1 Chron. 28:9; Deut. 26:17; Isa. 43:10; Jer. 14:22
(2)Ps. 95:6,7; Matt. 4:10; Ps. 29:2
(3)Mal. 3:16
(4)Ps. 63:6
(5)Eccl. 12:1
(6)Ps. 71:19
(7)Mal. 1:6
(8)Isa. 45:23
(9)Josh. 24:15,22
(10)Deut. 6:5
(11)Ps. 73:25
(12)Isa. 8:13
(13)Exod. 14:31
(14)Isa. 26:4
(15)Ps. 130:7
(16)Ps. 37:4
(17)Ps. 32:11
(18)Rom. 12:11 with Num. 25:11
(19)Phil. 4:6
(20)Jer. 7:23; James 4:7
(21)1 John 3:22
(22)Jer. 31:18; Ps. 119:136
(23)Micah 6:8

WLC 105 What are the sins forbidden in the first commandment? A. The sins forbidden in the first commandment are, Atheism, in denying, or not having a God;(1) Idolatry, in having or worshipping more gods than one, or any with or instead of the true God;(2) the not having and avouching him for God, and our God;(3) the omission or neglect of any thing due to him, required in this commandment;(4) ignorance,(5) forgetfulness,(6) misapprehensions,(7) false opinions,(8) unworthy and wicked thoughts of him;(9) bold and curious searching into his secrets;(10) all profaneness,(11) hatred of God;(12) self-love,(13) self-seeking,(14) and all other inordinate and immoderate setting of our mind, will, or affections upon other things, and taking them off from him in whole or in part;(15) vain credulity,(16) unbelief,(17) heresy,(18) misbelief,(19) distrust,(20) despair,(21) incorrigibleness(22) and insensibleness under judgments(23), hardness of heart,(24) pride,(25) presumption,(26) carnal security,(27) tempting of God;(28) using unlawful means,(29) and trusting in unlawful means;(30) carnal delights and joys;(31) corrupt, blind, and indiscreet zeal;(32) lukewarmness,(33) and deadness in the things of God;(34) estranging ourselves, and apostatizing from God;(35) praying, or giving any religious worship, to saints, angels, or any other creatures;(36) all compacts and consulting with the devil,(37) and hearkening to his suggestions;(38) making men the lords of our faith and conscience;(39) slighting and despising God and his commands;(40) resisting and grieving of his Spirit,(41) discontent and impatience at his dispensations, charging him foolishly for the evils he inflicts on us;(42) and ascribing the praise of any good we either are, have, or can do, to fortune,(43) idols,(44) ourselves,(45) or any other creature.(46)

(1)Ps. 14:1; Eph. 2:12
(2)Jer. 2:27,28 compared with 1 Thess. 1:9
(3)Ps. 81:11
(4)Isa. 43:22,23,24
(5)Jer. 4:22; Hos. 4:1,6
(6)Jer. 2:32
(7)Acts 17:23,29
(8)Isa. 40:18
(9)Ps. 50:21
(10)Deut. 29:29
(11)Tit. 1:16; Heb. 12:16
(12)Rom. 1:30
(13)2 Tim. 3:2
(14)Phil. 2:21
(15)1 John 2:15,16; 1 Sam. 2:29; Col. 3:2,5
(16)1 John 4:1
(17)Heb. 3:12
(18)Gal. 5:20
(19)Acts 26:9
(20)Ps. 78:22
(21)Gen. 4:13
(22)Jer. 5:3
(23)Isa. 42:25
(24)Rom. 2:5
(25)Jer. 13:15
(26)Ps. 19:13
(27)Zeph. 1:12
(28)Matt. 4:7
(29)Rom. 3:8
(30)Jer. 17:5
(31)2 Tim. 3:4
(32)Gal. 4:17; John 16:2; Rom. 10:2; Luke 9:54,55
(33)Rev. 3:16
(34)Rev. 3:1
(35)Ezek. 14:5; Isa. 1:4,5
(36)Rom. 10:13,14; Hosea 4:12; Acts 10:25,26; Rev. 19:10; Matt. 4:10; Col. 2:18; Rom. 1:25
(37)Lev. 20:6; 1 Sam. 28:7,11; 1 Chron. 10:13,14
(38)Acts 5:3
(39)2 Cor. 1:24; Matt. 23:9
(40)Deut. 32:15; 2 Sam. 12:9; Prov. 13:13
(41)Acts 7:51; Eph. 4:30
(42)Ps. 73:2,3,13,14,15,22; Job 1:22
(43)1 Sam. 6:7,8,9
(44)Dan. 5:23
(45)Deut. 8:17; Dan. 4:30
(46)Hab. 1:16

[Edited on 12/17/2004 by fredtgreco]

 

[fredtgreco]

Just so we are on the same page, then:

the 1st commandment prohibits idolatry, or worshipping something other than God as if it were God, right?

 

[fredtgreco]

Ok. I think I know where we are at. Do me one more small favor. Since you don't agree with the Catechism's explication of the 2nd Commandment (and I do, so you know where I stand), tell me how you explicate the 2nd commandment (both in prohibition and positive command).

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Paul manata
wait for a second, how do I disagree with the catechism on this?


I would not make any representation of God, any of the persons of the Godhead, any thing intended to represent, tangibly or intangibly, any of the divine personages. I would seek to see how I did any of these things. I would seek to keep pure religious worship, detest false worship, etc.


That is, where does the catechism say that Christ's *humanity* cannot be depicted?

[Edited on 12-17-2004 by Paul manata]

"the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons" (WLC 109)

Unless you are a Nestorian, and say that the Nature can be separated from a Person. I was going here later (much later) but we can begin here. Do you disagree with WLC 36?

The only Mediator of the covenant of grace is the Lord Jesus Christ, who, being the eternal Son of God, of one substance and equal with the Father, in the fulness of time became man, and so was and continues to be God and man, in two entire distinct natures, and one person, forever.

Or WLC 40?

Why was it requisite that the Mediator should be God and man in one person?

It was requisite that the Mediator, who was to reconcile God and man, should himself be both God and man, and this in one person, that the proper works of each nature might be accepted of God for us, and relied on by us, as the works of the whole person

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Paul manata
Yes, I agree with those. And, if I'm nestorian then you're bying into docetic diminution of the reality of the incarnation. But, I'd rather nor have this thread degenerate into name calling.


I'm confused, though, you said this in another thread: "I would think this merely refers to the true humanity of Christ - namely that he could get sick, hurt, etc. That is what I think "accidents" means."

Did you just seperate persons?

Or, take the proposition: "Jesus wept." Now, theologically, we would say that, "In respects to his human nature, Jesus wept." When we do that do we seperate person?

Or, "Who touched me?" Did the omnsicient not know something? No. Again, that we properly be classified as attributed to his human nature and not a seperation of person.

Lastly, I just want to make sure you're not comminting the error of materialism. I agree with this statement you posted: "... and so was and continues to be God and man, in two entire distinct natures, and one person, forever." You don't think that the human "person" *was* the physical body, do you? That is, hypothetically, if Christ lost a limb while playing as a child, would he not have been the same *person* anymore? When Jesus lay in the tomb was the *person* dead? No. The body is properly attributed to his *human* nature.

So, the distinction between person and nature is important in that there are attributes of the divine nature that the human doesn't have and there are attributes of the human nature that the divine doesn't have. For example, with respects to Jesus' humanity he was not omnipotent. And, with respects to his divine nature, he couldn't get sick.

Paul,

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was calling you a Nestorian. I rather meant to say that since separation of the Natures is Nestorian, that would not be an option for you.

It appears to me (at least) that all that you have cited cuts against the position of depicting only Christ's humanity. His person is certainly more than His body. And so when we depict Him, we cannot depict just a nature. We have to depict the hypostatic union, which is in effect - His Person.

So my point here, and then we can move on, is that the Catechism makes clear you cannot depict His Person. Since there is no way to depict a Nature separate from a Person (unless a Nestorian two Person construct is given), then to depict Christ is to depict His person. So if you say we can depict Christ, that is a Biblical discussion, but not a Confessional one, for you would necessarily have to disagree with WLC 109.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Paul manata

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was calling you a Nestorian. I rather meant to say that since separation of the Natures is Nestorian, that would not be an option for you.

I can read it in that light. I though it was a backhanded slap. That is, a criticism phrased as a question.

Seriously, forgive me. You are right it could be read that way, and that was bad writing on my part.

Originally posted by Paul manata
1. The catechism makes it clear that you cannot dipict his person.

2. There is no way to depict a nature apart from a person.

3. To depict Christ depicts his person.

4. Therefore, you are at odds with the confession.

This is my point. Do you disagree?

Originally posted by Paul manata
We can analyze this later, but an attribute is *not* the nature. The body is an attribute of the human nature. Christ was still the same person even away from the body. On your above argument, then, you must say that the person was dead for three days since everything attributed to the nature must be attributed to the whole person.

Isn't that exactly the point? Doesn't a person die? Not a body? But isn't the definition of death one that involves the separation of soul from body? Because a man (other than Christ) does not die in the sense that he ceases to exist either. We define death as the destruction (so to sepak) of the body, not the person:

The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls, (which neither die nor sleep,) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them (WCF 32.1)

 

[fredtgreco]

Paul,

Where is the justification for not allowing divine attributes? By your person/attributes disctinction, the second commandment does not disallow depictions of an attribute, but a Person. I see no attribute language at all. I also wonder how that would have applied to the average Israelite, since he would have clearly understood every other command, but would have been forced to make a distinction based on philosophical categories (warranted ones, I believe) between Person and nature that were not resolved by the Church for 500 years. So was the average OT Israelite clueless, and was the average Christian without help for 500 years?

Oh, and what do we do about Theophanies? Could OT Jews then have depicted the man with Abraham, etc. If so, we did that NEVER occur?