The subconscious mind

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SmokingFlax

Puritan Board Sophomore
Is there such a thing?

...or only a product of Freudian imagination?

I caught myself using the term recently and then, after some thought, realized that I don't really even believe in it and, off the top of my head, can find no basis in Scripture for it.
 
The heart is deceitful above all things & desperately wicked - who can know it?

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by turmeric]
 
I've asked that very question many times.

I am going to throw some ideas at you. I am uncertain about how correct these ideas are. Consequently, I will reserve the right to change my mind.

Meg's Bible quote concerning how deceitful the human mind is is quite provacative. I have struggled with that passage for a long time.

Proverbs 28: 26 also says that 'he who trusts himself is a fool.'

Do you see the nasty implications of that bible passage? Society tells us to trust ourselves, yet the Bible tells us 'not to lean on our own understanding.'

But I am a born-again Christian. Surely, I can trust my heart and my own Biblical understanding?

Everyone seems to think they can trust themselves. Every religious denomination seems to figure they have the proper understanding of the Bible.

When I worked, I can not tell you the number of times that I have heard people criticize co-workers, employees, bosses, etc. They seldom criticize themselves. They themselves are always right.

Every car driver seems to think they they are good drivers surrounded by a whole bunch of bad drivers.

In bad marriages, the spouses generally blame the other spouse, not themselves.

I believe that this is because we often keep our own evil buried within our subconscious mind. I suspect we keep our evil intentions in the subconscious and out of awareness.

For the most part, we are not conscious of our own evil. We can be hyper-conscious of our brother's evil, but not necessarily our own.

One author described the subconscious mind as being the mental activites that are 'out of awareness.' I see this in myself and in other people.

Examples:

1) A person that has a chemical addiction may have no conscious awareness that he has that addiction because the immemse need for that chemical is lodged in the subconscious mind and out of awareness. The overwhelming need for the drug drives his consciousness to chemical abuse. Call him a drug addict, and he will probably throw a 'righteous' fit.
He will sincerely think you are wrong.

2) A person that has a destructive behavior problem, like chronic complaining, often has no awareness of how this drives people insane because the behavior is out of awareness and not at a conscious level.
The conscious mind may not be able to bare the shame. The conscious mind is only aware of the object of complain.

3) With myself: in 1984 I started to slowly become disabled. For many years, I physically struggled with the illness but my conscious mind refused to admit it. When my doctor said my fatigue was due to my illness, I cringed. The extent of the illness was rejected by my concious mind.

4) Bay of Pigs Disaster: In 1961 or 1962, the US helped a handful of Cuban exiles try to overthrow a much larger Cuban force. This ended in disaster. In hindsight, JFK admitted that this was a stupid idea, and he accepted blame.

People inside and outside the JFK administration blamed this disaster on Groupthink. Groupthink is a subconscious need for group members to reach agreement and place dissenting information out of awareness. The subconscious need to agree blinded them to the massive risks inherent to the operation. Criticisms were 'discouraged.' and excluded from group consciousness.

5) Many prejudices are subconscious. For instance, we humans frequently judge by looks. We are not necessarily aware of this, however, properly controlled studies have shown that attractive, slim, well-dressed people are viewed as being more trustworthy, intelligent, etc.

We say we don't discriminate because these judgements are in the subconscious. We subconsciously judge people by the way they look.

Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island just looks more trustworthy than that greasy guy with 15 gold necklaces. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Your subconscious probably thinks she is more trustworthy.

6) Ever have a smoker say that cigarettes will not hurt him? This is probably because the hazards of cigarette smoking are so real that he drives uncomfortable thoughts of cancer out of awareness into his subconscious.

7) When I was in Grade 8, I behaved poorly. I talked too much, I said stupid things, etc. I did not really accept this fact until very recently. I believe that I subconsciously pushed this out of awareness because this fact is humiliating. I thought certain classmates were jerks, but really I was the jerk.

8) My mother lived in Holland during WWII. A few years after the bombing stopped, a book case fell in her family's home. My mom's whole family IMMEDIATELY ducked under tables - without thinking.

Normally a noise like this would be surprising, but not really traumatizing.
However, the trauma of WWII was so profound that, without thinking about it, the whole family treated the event as a bombing raid. Their subconscious mind had taught them to immediately seek cover when loud noises occur. Their conscious minds knew that the bombing had stopped.

My prayer to God is, 'Lord help me see what I need to see, not what I want to see.'

I suspect that on the Day of Judgment many professing Christians will be confronted by sins that they drove from their awareness. My prayer is that God gently show me my sins now, so that I can repent now.

I hope this post makes sense. I have struggled with this issue quite a bit.

Question: Why did the Pharisees persecute Jesus? Did God harden their hearts? Did the Pharisee subconsciously demand a militaristic Messiah?
Were the Pharisees subconsciously jealous of Jesus' power? I do not know. Do we need to know?

Humerous aside: I discussed this once with a professing Christian. His response was, 'I am not deceived in any way. My subconcious is not hiding any information.' I later asked a co-worker how bright he was. Her response: 'Not very.' I agreed.
 
psychology often does well in gathering statistics and even describing symptoms, but due to its secular foundation, fails in regards to solutions.

Psychology is useful in some areas...and even Freud was very insightful.

I believe that we can go to him to see how he explains some problems and groups clusters of symptoms together, but he is woefully inadequate for any remedy.
 
Henry,

You obviously HAVE given a lot of thought about this but I'm not sure that I can agree with how you are defining and interpreting "subconscious mind" as it seems to me that most of the examples that you used fall under a "willful ignorance" or a learned response/reaction -each being started with a prior conscious knowledge/behavior.

subconscious - Beneath the threshold of consciousness. (American Heritage Dictionary)

As such, they are symptoms of (something) but does that necessarily automatically translate as a "subconscious mind?"

I agree with Trevor's post but I wonder how much is lost by letting therapeutic language dominate how we define man and his guilt.
 
... wonderful posts above, by the way! Very insightful and helpful.

And other examples of the subconcious mind is how when you are having difficulty recalling a name, etc.; how it will "just come to you" at some time when you're not thinking about it at all.

Or how at times you might blurt out some information that even surprised yourself that you knew; and if you would have had to think about it for a while, you never would have come up with it.

Or how after studying for a test (such as an insurance or some licensing exam), you can take the test and score a 90% when you were very unsure of 60% of the answers. Something happened when you read the material that "seeped in" as a result of hitting your eyes and being recorded to the brain, without you really being able to remember anything specifically.

I'm sure MANY other examples can be cited , I have many more and I just can't think of any right now. I bet I'll wake up at 3am and have 4 great examples come to my mind...
 
Believe it or not, but the army trained me as a counselor.

I was an R.N., and then was trained for 6 months in order to do therapy. At the end of my service I was a head of a combat stress control team while on deployment.

A funny thing.... I saw more cases of sexual misconduct, lesbianism and transvestitism than I did PTSD. I left when the "war" part of the war stopped, so perhaps this is the reason (not enough time for PTSD to manifest). But still, it was not what I expected.

Sort of funny..went all the way overseas to talk to some corporals who wore women's panties!

When my wife would ask me how work was I would respond, "Work's a little crazy..."

I do not believe that counseling/psychology etc are off-limits to the Christian, however. A man in my own church spoke to me dismissively about psychology, sort of like, "Ewww...you'r one of those..." He liked Jay Adams and used Adams as a bludgeon.

While I too like Adams, Idon't think all aliments are the result of personal sin. The sin of mankind brought ailments into the world, but there are some truly biological causes of mental illness.


What was my methodology? It was a duty-based approach.

I never minimized guilt. I often said, "Guilt is a useful tool...it motivates us to do things we know is right but nevertheless do not desire to do.." I never minimized their sins. I would affirm that their actions were bad. I never told anyone that they couldn't help their own actions. Instead, my approach was; well, if you cannot control yourself what good is it for me to talk to you.

While not expressly allowed to prosylitize I often asked of their own religious background and what their church taught regarding their actions. Once they took that ball and run the conversation even got theological oftentimes.



Trevor
 
Christopher: I can appreciate why you would make a comment like this.

When someone denies a weakness or denies a sin, is this because they are "willfuly ignorant" to use your terms, or is it because the person subconsciously blocks the stressful thought from his "awareness?"

When someone compulsively eats too much and denies he is a glutton, is it because he decided one morning to lie about eating, or is it because there are issues beyond his awareness that drive him to overeat and deny it?

I read a study once that examined a group of obese people. It found that these people tended to under-report food intake by 25% and over-report exercise. Christopher, was this deliberate lying or just a lack of true awareness? I really don't know.

I suspect that this issue is two sides of the same coin. Because of man's total depravity, his subconscious blocks from his awareness sin issues. In essence, his subconscious allows him to be willfuly ignorant.

Proverbs 16:2 says, "All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord."

I believe that our subconscious is so powerful that it can overrule recognizing a multitude of sins and keep us from repenting. I believe many people are not just willfuly ignorant of sin, but so steeped in sin that their conscious mind can not even see it. Unfortunately, I have seen this in my own life with myself.

When King David was sinfully involved with Bathsheba and had her husband killed, I suspect King David could not originally grasp the gravity of the sin because his subconscious prevented him from seeing the full evil. I suspect David's ways "seemed innocent to him."

I suspect only direct intervention from God, via Nathan, allowed David to bring the sin to "awareness." I suspect that without Godly intervention that sin may never have again entered David's conscious mind. (Lord, please forgive me if I am wrong about this)

I believe willful ignorance is driven by a subconscious need not to recognize sins, flaws, faults, etc.

In reply to Trevor's post: Trevor, I had trouble understanding your posts. I hope this is not because the message was so harsh that my subconscious prevented my conscious mind from grasping any criticism.
(I am very sensitive you know.)

I suspect you question the usefulness of psychology. I question it too. Much of what passes for "Christian psychology" I think is really really bad.

On the other hand, I find understanding something about the subconscious to be very useful in life. It explains why humans behave in such bizarre ways sometimes.

To paraphrase Blaise Pascal, "The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing: we know this in countless ways"

I'm sure everyone on this board has been mystified at times by the behavior of other people - or themselves. I think that once we begin to examine thoughts that are not in full awareness (subconscious thoughts) you can get wisdom.

This is far easier said than done. I believe that we are at the mercy of God to understand our own sinful motivations. Hence: "All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord."

I suspect that our subconscious needs and desires drive many sinful behaviors. I suspect that this is one reason we are totally depraved.

Many times I have prayed, "Lord, it is easy for me to see the sins of others, please help me see my own sins (which are buried deep in my subconscious mind.)"

I hope this makes sense.
 
Henry, I have to say that you attribute WAY more to this indefinable boogeyman (the subconscious mind) than I ever will.

The flip-side of all of this is what is prevalent in the self-help (and New Age) subculture that practically attributes god-like powers to the subconscious mind and offers various ways to tap into it...to achieve your "personal power," etc.
It reminds me in no small way of some of the charismatic type spirituality that I've seen...with it's spiritual vs. carnal dualism. Which further leads me to think that all of this subjectivity may be due more to Kierkegaard than to Freud.

Even though I too have been confounded by my own actions at times it always comes back to my own vanity and depravity as far as I can tell.
 
Written above:

"In reply to Trevor's post: Trevor, I had trouble understanding your posts. I hope this is not because the message was so harsh that my subconscious prevented my conscious mind from grasping any criticism.
(I am very sensitive you know.)"



Sorry, I gave more of a personal history than I did a well argued thesis. The fault of the writer, not the reader. You also wrote:


"I suspect you question the usefulness of psychology. I question it too. Much of what passes for "Christian psychology" I think is really really bad.

On the other hand, I find understanding something about the subconscious to be very useful in life. It explains why humans behave in such bizarre ways sometimes. "



I reply with a hearty amen, brother. I agree.

I am suspicious of most "counseling ministries" in churches.

In fact, I am suspicious of everything that calls itself a ministry that is outside of the ordained offices of the church.

I prefer to call any counselors affiliated with a church as "ancillary staff" or something else, but not "minister". I prefer not to have counselors affiliated with a church at all...is the pastor totally inept at talking to people that he cannot counsel?
 
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