The Trinity?
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Our worldview (indeed, the only worldview) is meaningful because we can answer the question of the One and the Many, Revelation, History, etc.
Why would a god that is a monad communicate to men? Is it to fill the void in his existence? If so, then he is a deficient God.
If history is merely a string of facts (particulars) how do we make meaning of it?
Do I have five ducks? or one glob of duckness?
Non-trinitarian thought cannot answer the above questions. I assume you asked the questions with worldview, not ontology in mind.
Why would a god that is a monad communicate to men? Is it to fill the void in his existence? If so, then he is a deficient God.
If history is merely a string of facts (particulars) how do we make meaning of it?
Do I have five ducks? or one glob of duckness?
Non-trinitarian thought cannot answer the above questions. I assume you asked the questions with worldview, not ontology in mind.
Being a Trinitarian means believing in the true God of the Bible. Being a non-Trinitarian means being an idolater.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
yes
Trinity cannot be the same as non-Trinity
Trinity cannot be the same as non-Trinity
Yes. If one does not believe that Christ is God, he cannot be saved. That does not mean that one needs to know all the fine points of Trinitarian theology, but the basics are essential.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
Do you honestly think that the thief on the cross understood the doctrine of the Trinity?
It had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation, and anyone who says differently needs corrective instruction.
But an improper understanding of the Trinity can and will retard a proper understanding of our holy faith.
Please be welcome to ask for more clarification.
The thief did understand that Jesus was God.
Average Joey
Puritan Board Junior
I agree.The theif`s conversion on the cross is one of the most supernatural salvation experiences in the Bible(all is supernatural,but you understand my point).He had no knowledge of Christ being God beforehand.However something happened on that cross.He saw something that was revealed not with his eyes.All he saw was a bloodied beaten man who was dying.I think this verse applies here:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
He saw that Christ was God because it was revealed or written to him in his heart.
alwaysreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
Bobby asks:
"Does a person have to be cognitive that there are three Persons in the Godhead to be a Christian?"
Is this question stimulated by your talks with the JW's?
Just curious.
In answer to the question, its important to find out WHICH question is really being asked:
Are you asking if someone can be SAVED or be a CHRISTIAN without that knowledge?
These two might be thought of as being identical, but I think the word Christian implies that one is now part of the true faith and is continuing in their growth and knowledge of Christ and Christianity.
Someone surely can be saved without that knowledge, and I think the thief on the cross example above is ample proof.
However to be a Christian means that you are encountering the true teachings of Biblical Christianity and accepting them. If one decides that they now are a Christian, and yet is at odds with and disagrees with the doctrine of the Trinity, then I don't think that person has any right to call themselves a Christian, as they are really in opposition to the faith.
Ignorance is one thing; fighting against the Truth is another.
A JW, for example, can come to the understanding of Christ as his/her Savior, and be saved. Later on, hopefully very quickly, he will learn of and accept the personality of the Holy Spirit and no longer be convinced He is simply the "force" of God, like electricity.
"Does a person have to be cognitive that there are three Persons in the Godhead to be a Christian?"
Is this question stimulated by your talks with the JW's?
Just curious.
In answer to the question, its important to find out WHICH question is really being asked:
Are you asking if someone can be SAVED or be a CHRISTIAN without that knowledge?
These two might be thought of as being identical, but I think the word Christian implies that one is now part of the true faith and is continuing in their growth and knowledge of Christ and Christianity.
Someone surely can be saved without that knowledge, and I think the thief on the cross example above is ample proof.
However to be a Christian means that you are encountering the true teachings of Biblical Christianity and accepting them. If one decides that they now are a Christian, and yet is at odds with and disagrees with the doctrine of the Trinity, then I don't think that person has any right to call themselves a Christian, as they are really in opposition to the faith.
Ignorance is one thing; fighting against the Truth is another.
A JW, for example, can come to the understanding of Christ as his/her Savior, and be saved. Later on, hopefully very quickly, he will learn of and accept the personality of the Holy Spirit and no longer be convinced He is simply the "force" of God, like electricity.
Chris,
I think you are right on the money. No, my question didn't have anything necessarily to do with JW'S. I ask because much of our individual witnessing , and sermons from the pulpit never mention the Holy Spirit, nor the eternality of the Son
But a person realizes their need of Christ, Who is God's appointed way of salvation.
Yes, a person must be Trinitarian regarding the fact that the Father chose that person, the Son gave Himself for that person, and the Holy Spirit has regenerated that person. But, the cognitive awareness of the three Persons of the Godhead will come in time.
QUESTION: Do you always set forth the Trinity when you witness or preach?
I think you are right on the money. No, my question didn't have anything necessarily to do with JW'S. I ask because much of our individual witnessing , and sermons from the pulpit never mention the Holy Spirit, nor the eternality of the Son
But a person realizes their need of Christ, Who is God's appointed way of salvation.
Yes, a person must be Trinitarian regarding the fact that the Father chose that person, the Son gave Himself for that person, and the Holy Spirit has regenerated that person. But, the cognitive awareness of the three Persons of the Godhead will come in time.
QUESTION: Do you always set forth the Trinity when you witness or preach?
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
As Fred noted, understanding and confession that Jesus is the Second Person of the Triune God is an essential doctrine of the faith, which is why Christianity is separate from Unitarianism, Modalism, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam and other false anti-Trinitarian religions and heresies which go out of their way to deny that Christ is God. This doctrine was among the first propounded by the early Church in the Apostles', Nicene and Athanasius Creeds, and is quite prominent in the Westminster Confession as well as all orthodox such documents precisely because it is of the utmost importance. The Triune God is the God of the Bible, and denial of the Trinity is a denial of the true God.
[Edited on 3-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
[Edited on 3-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
My Reformed Trinitiarian Creed--
I was elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.
I was elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.
Average Joey
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Puritanhead
My Reformed Trinitiarian Creed--
I was elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.
Awesome!
weinhold
Puritan Board Freshman
Here are some book links that may be helpful.
Stan Grenz's Book on the Trinity
The Trinitarian Controversy
[Edited on 12-5-2005 by weinhold]
Stan Grenz's Book on the Trinity
The Trinitarian Controversy
[Edited on 12-5-2005 by weinhold]
ChristianasJourney
Puritan Board Sophomore
I just came back from a JW's website...I decided to look them up having only a general idea where their errors in doctrines occured, dispite having lived next to one my entire life. So I find that they don't believe in the Trinity.
Fred and others emphasized the role that Jesus plays in the Trinity and salvation, but not too much has been touched on regarding the Holy Spirit (which by the way the JW's don't capitalize) and why one must believe in the Holy Spirit for salvation. Which if you're have to believe in the Trinity, than by necessity you have to believe in the 3rd Godhead.
So my question,: Do you have to have an active knowledge of the Holy Spirit or is simply the Spirit's movement within your heart enough for salvation? By accepting Jesus as they Way to the Father are you automatically accepting the Power of the Spirit within you, or do you have to acknowledge the Spirit's existence as well?
I hope these questions don't seem too elementary, I'm trying to be better prepared to voice my own beliefs.
Fred and others emphasized the role that Jesus plays in the Trinity and salvation, but not too much has been touched on regarding the Holy Spirit (which by the way the JW's don't capitalize) and why one must believe in the Holy Spirit for salvation. Which if you're have to believe in the Trinity, than by necessity you have to believe in the 3rd Godhead.
So my question,: Do you have to have an active knowledge of the Holy Spirit or is simply the Spirit's movement within your heart enough for salvation? By accepting Jesus as they Way to the Father are you automatically accepting the Power of the Spirit within you, or do you have to acknowledge the Spirit's existence as well?
I hope these questions don't seem too elementary, I'm trying to be better prepared to voice my own beliefs.
I believe the role of the Holy Spirit is at times downplayed to compensate the pentecostal charasmatics. We have a way of doing that in our theology.
The role of the triune Godhead is never seperated. All 3 play a "part" in everything that comes to pass. I see no distinction between "active knowledge" vs knowing the Spirits movement.
Calvin for one stressed the Work of the Holy Spirit more than he is credited. Why this has dimished I can only attribute to my previous statement above.
I would clarify your statement as saying the One triune Godhead. If not you can become guilty of tritheism.
In His Grace
Joseph
[Edited on 3-27-2005 by The Lamb]
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Yes, ALWAYS in some form >>>> Jesus is God, Savior, Lord, etc. is a TRINITARIAN statement.
Hey Professor Plum....check-it-out! What a great question....See what Paul does to these disciples.....
Acts 19:1-7 (Paul in Ephesus)
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "œDid you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "œNo, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "œThen what baptism did you receive?" "œJohn's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, "œJohn's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
And again...here is what Paul says of the Spirit in us and the New Covenant contrasting it with the old covenant & Israel:
2 Corinthians 3:7-18 (but read this entire chapter!)
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the(Holy) Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with everincreasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
What thinks, you?R.
ChristianasJourney
Puritan Board Sophomore
Great references! I'm ashamed that foggy cold-ridden brain didn't think of them myself (blame it on the illness, of course, there's no guarantee I would've come up with them with if I were %100 well).
Thanks.
Thanks.
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