Thine Is the Kingdom: A Study of the Postmillennial Hope

[ReformedWretch]

200 dollars?!

Wow...anyone know why?

 

[SmokingFlax]

Whoa! $200 down to $17 ...what's up with that?

 

[ReformedWretch]

That is what it was listed for at Amazon! Maybe a typo but it remained at the price through several mouse clicks.

Thanks Paul!

 

[ReformedWretch]

Just ordered it!

 

[SmokingFlax]

Paul,

This another one of those things people call a "joke" isn't it?

 

[Me Died Blue]

Wow, Adam, you're right - they don't have any new copies, just one used, and its seller is selling it for $195.50, under which is listed "Low Price" when you click on it!

 

[ReformedWretch]

YEP!

Crazy! I was so looking forward to it and was saddened when I saw that. I had hoped someone here could send me to a reasonable place.

Maybe I should sell mine on Amazon for a mere 150? (just kidding)

 

[ReformedWretch]

Originally posted by Paul manata

Originally posted by SmokingFlax
Paul,

This another one of those things people call a "joke" isn't it?

I never joke about eschatology. Except when I ponder about the rapture and all the people indoors continually bumping into the ceiling,

Oh man!

 

[ReformedWretch]

Nah, I am off duty until Tuesday afternoon!

 

[SmokingFlax]

..."all the people indoors continually bumping into the ceiling, "

that's pretty funny.

I've been eyeballing about 1/2 dozen books there at Chalcedon that I've wanted to get for some time...now that they've got a sale going on (till early January) I might have to break my moratorium on book buying and get a couple of them to celebrate the new year.

 

[bigheavyq]

speaking of the title: It reminds me why I must be postmillenial.
optimism about the future (faith in what I don't see now being made right because of God's sovereignty).
and mostly HOPE. (I hate it when dispensationist think they have the corner on this i.e. the rapture)
Faith, Hope, and Love.
Hope is a major virtue of the christian life and when it comes to last things postmillenialism is the most hopeful and I believe God glorifying.

 

[bigheavyq]

by the way I'm listening to 2hours of Handel's Messiah which I gives me postmillenial hope.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
speaking of the title: It reminds me why I must be postmillenial.
optimism about the future (faith in what I don't see now being made right because of God's sovereignty).
and mostly HOPE. (I hate it when dispensationist think they have the corner on this i.e. the rapture)
Faith, Hope, and Love.
Hope is a major virtue of the christian life and when it comes to last things postmillenialism is the most hopeful and I believe God glorifying.

I haven't yet studied the various Reformed eschatologies and thus don't have a position, but remember that just because something sounds the best to us does not necessarily mean it is the biblical position.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Indeed, and I'm not saying Postmillennialism is not biblical - I'm simply saying that even if it seems to us to be the eschatology that would most glorify God's sovereignty, that still does not in itself necessarily mean that it is the biblical eschatology.

 

[Me Died Blue]

When I wrote both, I was actually equating "sounding the best to us" with "seeming to us to most glorify God's sovereignty" in my mind, since the latter would naturally fulfill the former - but I guess the Calvinist in me should have been more clear on that!

 

[bigheavyq]

chris,
I'm not just postmill because of feelings but of what the Bible says and tremendous study in the history of the first century. But while I rejected the dispensational view, I did not know their were other alternatives. A friend told me about some of the other views 15 years ago and when the postmill came up something clicked. Not only did it bring hope within my heart through its optimism but it seemed to fit with the covenantal nature of the rest of the Bible. I spent a number of years looking at all the views and the partial preterist postmill is the one that I clinged too.
All I was saying was the title A Postmillenial Hope captures the feeling I have about why I am. We all start to believe certain doctrines for a reason,
presuppositions or hopefully the Spirit is illumanating these things to us. Learning isn't just logically grasped, we don't believe them because it is the scholarly thing to do. Knowledge and wisdom are achieved in various ways. This may surprise you but not every one out there is like us. They don't pour over theology and think deep thoughts, yet they have godly wisdom. I'm sure there are some in your church and family. I apologize for going on like this, but sometimes we can be so smug that when we have so much knowledge(for much knowledge puffs up) that we look down on the average believer. Remember we are all part of the body, we can't say to the little toe, I'm the brain, I'm more important and have no need of you.
Humility is more valuable than pride. This is not directed at you or anyone in particular here just something to reflect on.

 

[Me Died Blue]

I hear what you're saying, Jonathan, and understand where you're coming from. And for all I know, I may one day join you in viewing Postmillennialism as an application of it. Or I may not. But in any case, thanks for the reminder to always humbly keep our faith in its proper place as a way of life, and not completely turn it into nothing more than a conjecture.

 

[RamistThomist]

Well spoken, Qualls!
In another thread I mentioned that watching Two Towers/Return of the King prompted me to the Postmillennial hope--there was an edge of seriousness to it. I went from premillennial despair to partial-preterism to and Edwardsean postmillennialism to Amillennialism. At that time I became disgusted with Neo-Evangelicalism (not that there is any connection between any of the non-premill positions and NeoEvs). Then I was introduced to Bahnsen and Postmillennial triumph.

At the same time I saw in the Return of the King a full expression of the triumph of the Good King. That and the final charge of Theoden's riders was AWESOME!!!!

 

[bigheavyq]

your welcome chris,
Off subject just for a minute, what was your first reaction to some of your changed views like calvinism. Was it base solely on scriptural logic? Did you change to a conceptual calvinist or was there something inside you that made you feel different.

 

[RamistThomist]

Felt different.

I think with my feelings

 

[Me Died Blue]

I felt different after I became convinced of it, but I can honestly say that I was convinced of it only by Scriptural logic (by the Spirit's illumination of course), since even after I became convinced of it, I did not like it. It took me awhile to come to terms with it, and even further to start loving it and taking joy in it. But praise God that I did!

 

[bigheavyq]

Well, I felt freedom because when I was kid it was drilled into me if I sin and I don't repent before the rapture comes I'll go to hell. So, knowing that I was elected and that I belonged to Him made me feel free like I was born again twice.

 

[RamistThomist]

I presupposed it to be true and then defended it to be true, testing it for logical coherency.

 

[Me Died Blue]

So I guess you're just a presuppositionalist all-around, in-and-out, Jacob! Wow, we've really taken this thread away from its topic! So to get back there, I'll pose a question for thought: When those of you who are Postmillennial first became persuaded of your position, how did the other various positions relate to it in your mind right at that time? Like, how did you feel about Amillennialism, historic Premillennialism and even the alternate form of whichever Postmillennialism you hold to?

 

[RamistThomist]

I still thought that amillennialism had a lot scriptural logic to it, and to this day I still don't see any connection between pessisimism and amill--. Furthermore, I think the amill position on the millennium is the easiest to defend. Fred gets irritated when, after I have been praising theonomic postmill, I begin to act as though the other systems were compatible with it . Seriously, I have listened to a lot of what LOTW (Craig) has said on the millennium and would not want to debate him on it.

Despite many of my brazen eschatological claims, I am really not set in stone. [quick aside]What is Sinclair Ferguson's millennial position? And don't say amillennialism just to irritate me![/quick aside]

I have still have a lot of respect for amillers, but at the end of the day I will come down in the postmill camp, unless one can show me a variant branch within amillennialism that necessarily holds to a triumphant gospel.

 

[bigheavyq]

I took a class in 93 on the Book of Revelation. We went pretty in-depth with every view. premill, postmill, and amill. along with interpretations of revelation: preterist, historical, futurist, idealist, alegorical.
It was very detailed on every verse from several different authors on each position. In fairness, the teacher was preterist postmill., but he was very fair to all sides. Our text was Josephus and Chilton's books and his own Revelation and Common sense. We were encouraged to read others, although he went over each view thoroughly.
I pretty much became a Reconstructionist and Reformed after that.

 

[Ianterrell]

Chris,

In the most unintelligent way possibly to state it: I believe that Amillenialism has a some stuff right, and Premillenialism has some stuff right. Yes, Amill understands that Christ is reigning NOW, and that Christ's kingdom is spiritual. Premill understands the scope of of Christ's reign, and sees a fulfilment of the church in a special age. If you dump Amill's approach to the globalized nature of the church and take away the Premill confusion over when Christ reigns you have a form of postmillenialism. A hope for a spiritual kingdom that has real influence among a pre-Second Coming world.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Ian, that's interesting (and I actually think you stated it quite intelligently). I've never thought of the positions relating to each other that way before, of Amillennialism understanding the allegorical, spiritual, perpetual nature of Christ's reign, Premillennialism understanding the literal, earthly nature of it and Postmillennialism understanding both natures of it, as different aspects. I know it's somewhat simplistic, but I nonetheless found it interesting.

 

[Ianterrell]

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Ian, that's interesting (and I actually think you stated it quite intelligently). I've never thought of the positions relating to each other that way before, of Amillennialism understanding the allegorical, spiritual, perpetual nature of Christ's reign, Premillennialism understanding the literal, earthly nature of it and Postmillennialism understanding both natures of it, as different aspects. I know it's somewhat simplistic, but I nonetheless found it interesting.

That is exactly it. Postmillennialism understands both natures of Christ's kingdom eschatologically. When my Premill brothers scoff at the scope of the church in the Postmill view I get confused. When my Amill brothers limit items concerning Christ's reign I think they have gone too far in allegory (whereas in other places they use allegory rightly).

Psalm 67

 To the choirmaster: with stringed instruments. A Psalm. A Song. May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face to shine upon us, [Selah] 2 that thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving power among all nations. 3 Let the peoples praise thee, O God; let all the peoples praise thee! 4 Let the nations be glad and sing for joy, for thou dost judge the peoples with equity and guide the nations upon earth. [Selah] 5 Let the peoples praise thee, O God; let all the peoples praise thee! 6 The earth has yielded its increase; God, our God, has blessed us. 7 God has blessed us; let all the ends of the earth fear him!

Ps 22:27
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him

All in the bible, the average Amiller will tell you, does not have to mean every single person. This is true, but all never means a few. :bigsmile:

 

[Me Died Blue]

It could be understood as meaning people from every tribe, tongue and nation, as we take many of the "all" verses concerning Christ's Atonement to mean.