Hilasmos
Puritan Board Freshman
Okay, but the point of the article was to question the apparent arbitrariness of finding one aspect emblematic and not another. Why is 10% emblematic and not the other aspects?
Tithing--the Christian standard for giving?
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Okay, but the point of the article was to question the apparent arbitrariness of finding one aspect emblematic and not another. Why is 10% emblematic and not the other aspects?
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Melchisedek was a priest who was a type of the greater priest, Christ, so if tithing is "priestly" we may give tithes to Christ and His cause and kingdom.
We - normally - don't have the spoils of war to tithe, but as Christ's kingdom expands by the Holy War of mission and evangelism, there will be greater spoils of that war to give and tithe from.
I'm only arguing for a freely given tithe, anyway, which Gordon doesn't contradict.
We know polygamy is wrong.
This passage may be the account of Jacob's conversion.
We know it is not a duty to sleep on a rock. It may be a necessity if we are in the wilderness. Thankfully, in God's grace, many of us have pillows.
Jacob's making the rock a pillar and pouring oil on it, teaches us to worship God appropriately and remember what He has done for our soul.
The considerations that make tithing stand out as emblematic and paradigmatic for us in these passages are
(a) Abraham and Jacobs' relation to us as covenant forefathers. We are in the New Covenant stage of the Abrahamic Covenant.
(b) Melchisedek's being typological of Christ, our priest.
(c) Melchisedek bringing forth bread and wine, as Christ does for His people.
(d) Jacob's conversion leading to him taking giving seriously.
(e) The continuation of tithing as a pattern, albeit mandatory for the minority of Israel/the Church, by God's people throughout the Old Testament.
(f) The command to give regularly in the New Testament.
(g) The absence of any guidance as to appropriate regular week to week giving apart from the tithe.
Otherwise you give what you feel spiritually is right from one week to the next, without any, at least general guidance, from Scripture, because you believe there is none.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
Is it a matter of church discipline? Are they Reformed?
Given the abolition of the tithe does not abolish the moral obligation for systematic giving, the article might have been more forceful in its teaching on that. This was the point of my original comment.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
I know of believers who belong to churches whose pastor is supported.
However, though they give generously, they often divert their giving to missionaries who are passing through, Christians in need, or other good causes outside of their own local church. If the elders were to count the percentage given monthly it might be far less than 10% though their overall giving to the Church would be much higher than 10%.
However, though they give generously, they often divert their giving to missionaries who are passing through, Christians in need, or other good causes outside of their own local church. If the elders were to count the percentage given monthly it might be far less than 10% though their overall giving to the Church would be much higher than 10%.
Robert Truelove
Puritan Board Sophomore
Here is a recent sermon I preached on giving and how we should apply the equity of the tithe.
What Does Faithful Giving Look Like? - SermonAudio.com
In my personal experience as a pastor and as the former Director of eMinistry for Larry Burkett, the people who argue against tithing (that is, draw no equity from the tithe at all in regards to Christian giving) are not tithers in their giving. I don't believe a person who gives less than a tenth has the moral capital to address the subject of giving.
What Does Faithful Giving Look Like? - SermonAudio.com
In my personal experience as a pastor and as the former Director of eMinistry for Larry Burkett, the people who argue against tithing (that is, draw no equity from the tithe at all in regards to Christian giving) are not tithers in their giving. I don't believe a person who gives less than a tenth has the moral capital to address the subject of giving.
Robert,
If people are giving anonymously, spreading out their giving to many causes, and/or you and your elders are refraining from being intrusive in your checking of people's giving patterns, how would you ever know such a thing?
I know Christians who give much more than 10% yet deny the obligatory nature of a certain percentage requirement in giving.
Also, you stated, "..people who argue against tithing (that is, draw no equity from the tithe at all in regards to Christian giving)..."
Correction, it is not as if all people who argue against tithing "draw no equity from the tithe" if by this you mean see no similarity between the OT tithe and NT giving. Many who oppose the tithe do, in fact, see a level of equity, but this general equity is not enough to make the amount of 10% obligatory, or allow the elders to intrusively check such matters, or for a church to demand 10% of member's salaries go to them (that particular local church), or for a church to practice church discipline for not giving.
If people are giving anonymously, spreading out their giving to many causes, and/or you and your elders are refraining from being intrusive in your checking of people's giving patterns, how would you ever know such a thing?
I know Christians who give much more than 10% yet deny the obligatory nature of a certain percentage requirement in giving.
Also, you stated, "..people who argue against tithing (that is, draw no equity from the tithe at all in regards to Christian giving)..."
Correction, it is not as if all people who argue against tithing "draw no equity from the tithe" if by this you mean see no similarity between the OT tithe and NT giving. Many who oppose the tithe do, in fact, see a level of equity, but this general equity is not enough to make the amount of 10% obligatory, or allow the elders to intrusively check such matters, or for a church to demand 10% of member's salaries go to them (that particular local church), or for a church to practice church discipline for not giving.
Robert Truelove
Puritan Board Sophomore
Pergamum,
As I mentioned, for more than five years I was the Director of eMinistry for Larry Burkett (AKA Crown Ministries) which was the largest Bible based financial ministry in the world at the time (on virtually every Christian radio station in the country as well as in many other countries). My wife was a telephone representative there as well. That background alone has given my wife and I both tremendous opportunity to speak with many Christians on the subject of financial stewardship including other pastors and people who manage church finances.
For the record, we never go to any of our members at Christ Reformed Church and rebuke if we suspect they are not tithing. We don't even address a particular individual's giving unless they ask us about it. We do require that church officers tithe as we see this as a faithful baseline in giving and will address them if there is cause to be concerned in this area (I've never been in a church where this hasn't been the case).
As for the rest, I think you'll find the sermon I posted helpful in addressing the other concerns.
As I mentioned, for more than five years I was the Director of eMinistry for Larry Burkett (AKA Crown Ministries) which was the largest Bible based financial ministry in the world at the time (on virtually every Christian radio station in the country as well as in many other countries). My wife was a telephone representative there as well. That background alone has given my wife and I both tremendous opportunity to speak with many Christians on the subject of financial stewardship including other pastors and people who manage church finances.
For the record, we never go to any of our members at Christ Reformed Church and rebuke if we suspect they are not tithing. We don't even address a particular individual's giving unless they ask us about it. We do require that church officers tithe as we see this as a faithful baseline in giving and will address them if there is cause to be concerned in this area (I've never been in a church where this hasn't been the case).
As for the rest, I think you'll find the sermon I posted helpful in addressing the other concerns.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I think the idea of pure freewill "grace-giving" without any guidance from Scripture whatever as to what proportion sounds good, but we have to remember that we are not constantly filled with the Spirit, we have sin in us as well as grace, and from a practical point of view it means that we have to think of what is the new appropriate proportion from week to week.
It would probably merit another thread to ask how those who give without any reference to the tithe, or even another regular proportion, find how that works out.
It would probably merit another thread to ask how those who give without any reference to the tithe, or even another regular proportion, find how that works out.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
I found another essay on the moral obligation of tithing. It reviews Thomas Peck's Work: http://www.newhopefairfax.org/files/Peck%20on%20Tithe.pdf
J. Dean
Puritan Board Junior
The Old Testament tithe also included livestock and agriculture. Last I checked, we don't do that.
Bear in mind that those who do not believe in the tithe are not saying "don't give." Some of us who do not believe in tithing might give more than you think
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
The Old Testament tithe also included livestock and agriculture. Last I checked, we don't do that.
Bear in mind that those who do not believe in the tithe are not saying "don't give." Some of us who do not believe in tithing might give more than you think
The tithe could be turned into money in certain cases. This touches on the subject of whether there was more than one tithe under Moses:
The tithe is just a useful guide, and I wouldn't presume to say that many non-tithers are not giving a higher proportion of their income than tithers. I'm sure of this from experience. Many tithers will be giving more than 10% too.
Isn't the word "tithe" related to the word "Tenth" - therefore, we cannot escape speaking of certain percentage obligations if we retain the OT term "tithe" when speaking of our NT giving. Saying that giving a 16th is the same as giving a tenth just won't do. If the tithe still exists, it is an obligation to give a certain set percentage minimum.
---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------
Thus a "tithe" is most certainly not a "useful guide" if it is a set percentage obligation that we are required to give.
---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------
Thus a "tithe" is most certainly not a "useful guide" if it is a set percentage obligation that we are required to give.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Pergy
We aren't required to give 10% unless we voluntarily enter in to a commitment to give 10% as did Abraham and Jacob, which should be encouraged for those who can afford it.
Someone who gives 16% on a regular basis may be someone who is committed to tithing but believes he can afford to give more. Or he may be someone who is not committed to tithing but wants to give 16%, in effect making him a de facto tither.
For those who tithe, tithing is a guide in the sense that it is only a minimum, and not a maximum. If we feel the Lord has blessed us and we are able we are fee to give more than a tithe in a week.
For those that haven't committed themselves to tithing, 10% can still be a useful guide as to normal giving.
Otherwise is it meant to be 100% - like the widow in the Gospels? Clearly our Lord didn't mean that 100% was to be given each week by everybody. 99%? 1%?
No. It's more like 5,6,7,8,9, 10%, depending on how able and willing we are.
We aren't required to give 10% unless we voluntarily enter in to a commitment to give 10% as did Abraham and Jacob, which should be encouraged for those who can afford it.
Someone who gives 16% on a regular basis may be someone who is committed to tithing but believes he can afford to give more. Or he may be someone who is not committed to tithing but wants to give 16%, in effect making him a de facto tither.
For those who tithe, tithing is a guide in the sense that it is only a minimum, and not a maximum. If we feel the Lord has blessed us and we are able we are fee to give more than a tithe in a week.
For those that haven't committed themselves to tithing, 10% can still be a useful guide as to normal giving.
Otherwise is it meant to be 100% - like the widow in the Gospels? Clearly our Lord didn't mean that 100% was to be given each week by everybody. 99%? 1%?
No. It's more like 5,6,7,8,9, 10%, depending on how able and willing we are.
travstar
Puritan Board Freshman
This discussion, to me, is always backward. The Gospel's message, reality, and power through Christ's work is not only stronger than the bare Law, but more inclusive. The only argument that seems to hold this "new testament spirit," would be an argument for abolishing the tithe to increase the basement, not looking for excuses to give less. In other words, we under grace have more benefits in every area of life than those who were under the law. Why ever argue that we should be able to give less than the law required, when our age of grace is better?
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