tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
What percentage of officers in the EPC are female? Are there any female officers in the EPC who would be considered strongly Reformed/strongly confessional?
Update on EPC and female ordination
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SemperEruditio
Puritan Board Junior
Do you mean that because the EPC is growing that there isn't a problem or much of a problem? Where is this growth occuring? Is the growth from new church plants or from churches coming into the EPC? With the issues going on in the PCUSA there are quite a number of churches seeking a more conservative denomination with the EPC being the one of choice.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
According to what I've heard, the Pittsburgh Presbytery is also complementarian.
Austin
Puritan Board Freshman
Riley: the Pittsburgh Presbytery (which will be western PA & eastern OH, & has yet to be named) doesn't yet exist. When/if it is created out of the East & Midwest Presbyteries it will indeed be open to egalitarianism. Also, there is another move to create a Pacific Presbytery which will include CA, WA, & OR. It will be open to egalitarianism, as is the West from which it will be created. So the tally runs as follows (including the 3 proposed Presbyteries & discounting the "transitional" presbyteries)):
3 Complementarian: Central South, Florida, & Mid-America.
6 Egalitarian-friendly: Pacific, West, Midwest, Great Lakes (Mid-America east of the Mississippi), Pittsburgh (to be created from East & Midwest), East.
2 Undecided/Unknown: Mid-Atlantic & Southeast.
Another thought to consider: I refer to the Presbyteries that are open to egalitarianism as "open to egalitarianism" because each has a substantial percentage of complementarian ministers & churches. Midwest, for instance, probably has a majority that is complementarian (at least among the ministers), but a large number of those look at the EPC position paper on female ordination & conclude that they don't want to vote their conscience on the issue because it has long been deemed a "non-essential." That said, I would guess that Midwest probably has 33%-40% of its membership (ministers & elder commissioners) who would resist a woman's ordination or transfer.
Frank: The overwhelming majority of the growth in the EPC is in churches transitioning in from the PCUSA. We have received approximately 100 churches from the PCUSA in the last few years, while adding only a few church plants. (This is not to demean the EPC's extensive church planting efforts, but to note that they are greatly outnumbered by transfers.) I would take it as a given that most of these PCUSA transfer churches are egalitarian. After all, women's ordination is, to my understanding, the only sine qua non for ordination in the PCUSA. (I.e., a candidate for ordination can be a homosexual, unitarian, deist/agnostic, heretic, or pantheist and be ordained assuming she is otherwise an egalitarian.) If I were to hazard an educated guess, I would think that a poll of the transferring ministers have never been exposed to any complementarian defense that is anything other than a straw-man caricature that sounds like some sort of poorly closeted misogyny. That is, I would guess that precious few (if any) have studied the excellent complementarian work of Jim Hurley or Susan Hunt, et al.
Tom: Until three years ago there were only 2 female ministers in the EPC. One was a chaplain and the other was a director of women's ministry at a church in Colorado. Since then, I would guess that the numbers of female ministers has grown, but not by too much. A guess would put the number in the geographic Presbyteries at a dozen or so at the outside. As far as their Reformed bonafides... well, that's hard to say. What constitutes "Reformed" in the PCUSA is vastly different from what most non-PCUSA Reformed people would consider "Reformed." After all, in the EPC our 4th Confessional document is "The Essentials of Our Faith," which is intended to be a minimum definition of broadly orthodox Christianity to which any mostly-uninformed member could agree. The New Wineskins folks have an almost identical document titled "The Essential Tenets of the Reformed Faith." The implication is that many of the New Wineskins folks consider one "Reformed" if one has a basic knowledge of saving faith. That said, on the basis of my exposure to the female TEs coming in to the EPC from the PCUSA are the absolute cream of the theological crop one could hope to get from the PCUSA. In other words, my exposure thus far tells me that the women coming in with the Transitional churches are soteriologically Reformed ("5-pointers"), Covenantal (i.e., not Dispensational), mostly hermeneutically Reformed, and see the OT as a positive witness to Christ. Now, THAT said, I have yet to hear a defense of egalitarianism that is anything other than the top of the slippery slope to theological liberalism & cultural relativism. After all, if one can say that Paul was speaking to the Corinthians & to Timothy solely in regard to their particular issues with unruly women, if it was a cultural thing, or if Galatians 3:28 is meant to be applied to gender roles, then one can say on the basis of the same hermeneutic that homosexuality is permissible and so on.
Just my 2 cents...
Shalom.
3 Complementarian: Central South, Florida, & Mid-America.
6 Egalitarian-friendly: Pacific, West, Midwest, Great Lakes (Mid-America east of the Mississippi), Pittsburgh (to be created from East & Midwest), East.
2 Undecided/Unknown: Mid-Atlantic & Southeast.
Another thought to consider: I refer to the Presbyteries that are open to egalitarianism as "open to egalitarianism" because each has a substantial percentage of complementarian ministers & churches. Midwest, for instance, probably has a majority that is complementarian (at least among the ministers), but a large number of those look at the EPC position paper on female ordination & conclude that they don't want to vote their conscience on the issue because it has long been deemed a "non-essential." That said, I would guess that Midwest probably has 33%-40% of its membership (ministers & elder commissioners) who would resist a woman's ordination or transfer.
Frank: The overwhelming majority of the growth in the EPC is in churches transitioning in from the PCUSA. We have received approximately 100 churches from the PCUSA in the last few years, while adding only a few church plants. (This is not to demean the EPC's extensive church planting efforts, but to note that they are greatly outnumbered by transfers.) I would take it as a given that most of these PCUSA transfer churches are egalitarian. After all, women's ordination is, to my understanding, the only sine qua non for ordination in the PCUSA. (I.e., a candidate for ordination can be a homosexual, unitarian, deist/agnostic, heretic, or pantheist and be ordained assuming she is otherwise an egalitarian.) If I were to hazard an educated guess, I would think that a poll of the transferring ministers have never been exposed to any complementarian defense that is anything other than a straw-man caricature that sounds like some sort of poorly closeted misogyny. That is, I would guess that precious few (if any) have studied the excellent complementarian work of Jim Hurley or Susan Hunt, et al.
Tom: Until three years ago there were only 2 female ministers in the EPC. One was a chaplain and the other was a director of women's ministry at a church in Colorado. Since then, I would guess that the numbers of female ministers has grown, but not by too much. A guess would put the number in the geographic Presbyteries at a dozen or so at the outside. As far as their Reformed bonafides... well, that's hard to say. What constitutes "Reformed" in the PCUSA is vastly different from what most non-PCUSA Reformed people would consider "Reformed." After all, in the EPC our 4th Confessional document is "The Essentials of Our Faith," which is intended to be a minimum definition of broadly orthodox Christianity to which any mostly-uninformed member could agree. The New Wineskins folks have an almost identical document titled "The Essential Tenets of the Reformed Faith." The implication is that many of the New Wineskins folks consider one "Reformed" if one has a basic knowledge of saving faith. That said, on the basis of my exposure to the female TEs coming in to the EPC from the PCUSA are the absolute cream of the theological crop one could hope to get from the PCUSA. In other words, my exposure thus far tells me that the women coming in with the Transitional churches are soteriologically Reformed ("5-pointers"), Covenantal (i.e., not Dispensational), mostly hermeneutically Reformed, and see the OT as a positive witness to Christ. Now, THAT said, I have yet to hear a defense of egalitarianism that is anything other than the top of the slippery slope to theological liberalism & cultural relativism. After all, if one can say that Paul was speaking to the Corinthians & to Timothy solely in regard to their particular issues with unruly women, if it was a cultural thing, or if Galatians 3:28 is meant to be applied to gender roles, then one can say on the basis of the same hermeneutic that homosexuality is permissible and so on.
Just my 2 cents...
Shalom.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I was merely thinking that a massive influx of churches can skew statistics. A problem may be widespread, but with an additional hundred churches that are not inclined to the problem would make the problem still troubling, but not widespread.
I am just curious as to how widespread Rev. Austin thinks the problems are.
Austin
Puritan Board Freshman
Shalom y'all,
Boliver: My assessment thus far is that the weak Confessionalism in the EPC is a significant issue that is getting worse. I know through personal experience that 2 presbyteries barely assess subscription, and have on good authority that a third is in the same boat. The three are West, Midwest, & East. Each has a significant presence of former UPCUSA (Northern Presbyterian) ministers and haven't experienced a lot of the benefits of having many RTS, Covenant, or Westminster grads as the Southern presbyteries have had. To be sure, there are significant minorities of solidly Reformed ministers in the western & northern presbyteries, but they are just that: minorities. And with the influx of PCUSA churches, I can only imagine that the weak Confessionalism will continue to grow. I say this as someone who has been a member of three presbyteries (West, Central South, & Midwest), and having served for several years as Clerk of the Ministerial Committee in Central South. There, the sense is that the EPC is just as confessional as the PCA, but with plenty of grace. (By way of example, our exams were very, very thorough, and to my knowledge we were the only Presbytery that has ever determined that an approved minister's exceptions were unacceptable. That is, we approved the minister for transfer or ordination, but with the stipulation that he submit to the teaching position of the Westminster Standards and refrain from teaching, preaching, or practicing his positions.)
But all in all, I have concluded (errantly, I hope) that this problem of weak subscription & broad evangelicalism is a growing problem that does not bode well for the EPC in the long term.
Boliver: My assessment thus far is that the weak Confessionalism in the EPC is a significant issue that is getting worse. I know through personal experience that 2 presbyteries barely assess subscription, and have on good authority that a third is in the same boat. The three are West, Midwest, & East. Each has a significant presence of former UPCUSA (Northern Presbyterian) ministers and haven't experienced a lot of the benefits of having many RTS, Covenant, or Westminster grads as the Southern presbyteries have had. To be sure, there are significant minorities of solidly Reformed ministers in the western & northern presbyteries, but they are just that: minorities. And with the influx of PCUSA churches, I can only imagine that the weak Confessionalism will continue to grow. I say this as someone who has been a member of three presbyteries (West, Central South, & Midwest), and having served for several years as Clerk of the Ministerial Committee in Central South. There, the sense is that the EPC is just as confessional as the PCA, but with plenty of grace. (By way of example, our exams were very, very thorough, and to my knowledge we were the only Presbytery that has ever determined that an approved minister's exceptions were unacceptable. That is, we approved the minister for transfer or ordination, but with the stipulation that he submit to the teaching position of the Westminster Standards and refrain from teaching, preaching, or practicing his positions.)
But all in all, I have concluded (errantly, I hope) that this problem of weak subscription & broad evangelicalism is a growing problem that does not bode well for the EPC in the long term.
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