arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
I am wondering what are some good resources on the visible/invisible church contra Shepherd, FV, et al.?
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Only the invisible church would be those under the NC and now saved, as there would be many professing, but still unsaved within the visible church at large.As noted above, I don't see Schilder as rejecting the distinction. The key point is that we can't absolutize them, otherwise we have two different churches: Church Visible and Church Invisible (so which is the body of Christ?).
Only the invisible church would be those under the NC and now saved, as there would be many professing, but still unsaved within the visible church at large.
A thornier question would involve when we administer the ordinances to the church at large, how would we know who is in which group?No one is disputing that on this thread, but does a preacher get up and when he starts talking about the death of Christ to his congregation, does he say, "Now for a moment I am only talking to the invisible church"?
A thornier question would involve when we administer the ordinances to the church at large, how would we know who is in which group?
A thornier question would involve when we administer the ordinances to the church at large, how would we know who is in which group?
God alone knows those whom are His, but that person can also know that they are saved due to the truth of scripture and the witness of the Holy Spirit.and there's the hair in the soup; both groups are moving forward on profession alone and presumption, which is earthy and imperfect.
Both groups still end up though at same place in the end, is that person professing Jesus saved them really now saved?And that's the difference between paedobaptists and credos.
Both groups still end up though at same place in the end, is that person professing Jesus saved them really now saved?
A thornier question would involve when we administer the ordinances to the church at large, how would we know who is in which group?
One area when we do need to use discernment would be in allowing for children to partake of those items, as they must be saved and need to have the parents exercise wisdom at those times of administrating them .We don't, not ultimately. This is why we fence the table before Communion, for example. But God knows who those who are are taking Communion legitimately and those who are not. Our job is to administer and take the elements by faith, leaving it to God to make invisible/visible distinctions.
One area when we do need to use discernment would be in allowing for children to partake of those items, as they must be saved and need to have the parents exercise wisdom at those times of administrating them .
Since only the saved though can receive those signs and seals, we both are in the same predicament in regards to just the elect receiving them.
You have posted though that is for the elect only, so how can we have children take them without discerning whether they are even saved or not?I am not in a predicament, since I believe children of the covenant ought to receive the sign of the covenant and grow up under the promises of the covenant.
You have posted though that is for the elect only, so how can we have children take them without discerning whether they are even saved or not?
You have posted though that is for the elect only, so how can we have children take them without discerning whether they are even saved or not?
Yes, for it stated that was the number God had added into the Church, and only saved person are included in/under the NC.Thats not entirely true....the covenant has always been made up of believers i.e. true elect and unbelievers i.e. reprobates; consider Ishmael, Esau, Judas, Demas, Ananias and Sapphira, Simon Magus. Even the Apostles were placing water on people who were not true believers and they had a spiritual insight that none of us have.
The benefits of the internal aspect of the covenant are only realized to the true Israel of God-however, the reprobates even share in the blessings of being in church and sitting under the means of grace (even though those means are a condemnation on the other hand) and sharing in loving fellowship from God's people.
Do u think that all 3000 that were baptized on the day of Pentecost were all elect?
Yes, for it stated that was the number God had added into the Church, and only saved person are included in/under the NC.
I would see the Husband and wife as going to heaven early, as God judged them for their sin in a way that made sure the early Church realized God was Holy. The other man God only knew his spiritual state at that time. Please remember when I say Church, its the invisible Body of Church being referenced.So, how do u respond to the fact that Ananias and his wife were in the NT church? or Demas who was active w Paul in ministry?
I think the author is warning us to make sure of our election and calling, as many will be in the assembly and profess and look the part, but in the end, will show their true condition, just as Judas did with Jesus.Additionally, if the elect cannot fall away, which we would both agree with, how is it that if everyone in the NT church are elect, that we have a myriad of warning passages about just that, warning people that they can fall away i.e. the book of Hebrews?
I would see the Husband and wife as going to heaven early, as God judged them for their sin in a way that made sure the early Church realized God was Holy. The other man God only knew his spiritual state at that time. Please remember when I say Church, its the invisible Body of Church being referenced.
I would see the Husband and wife as going to heaven early, as God judged them for their sin in a way that made sure the early Church realized God was Holy.
Colossians 4:14The other man God only knew his spiritual state at that time. Please remember when I say Church, its the invisible Body of Church being referenced.
Please remember when I say Church, its the invisible Body of Church being referenced.
I think the author is warning us to make sure of our election and calling, as many will be in the assembly and profess and look the part, but in the end, will show their true condition, just as Judas did with Jesus.
In a local assembly, there is a mixture of the invisible true church of Christ, the saved, and also the visible members of the local assembly church.Annias and his wife were hypocrtites; I will not bore you w/ Poole or Henry on the subject, but I will use a credo in John Gill:
"A name common among the Jews, the same with Hananiah, ( Jeremiah 28:1 ) ( Acts 9:10 ) ( 23:2 ) it signifies not the humility of the Lord, or the affliction of the Lord, or the answer of the Lord, as say some, as if it was derived from (hne) ; but the grace of the Lord, or the Lord's gracious one, coming from (Nnx) : there is no dependence on names; though this man's name signified one that was in the grace and favour of God; he was not so, but a graceless person, as appears by what follows. It is very likely he was a minister of the word, since the account of him follows upon that of Barnabas, and is opposed to it; it may be he was one of the hundred and twenty, on whom the Holy Ghost fell on the day of Pentecost; and yet, though he had great gifts, had no grace. This shows there are hypocrites among men of the greatest names and characters, and in the purest churches; this first and pure church, which, in the preceding chapter, has such large encomiums, was not free from them:"
Here, even Gill admits that these two were in the local church; possibly even a 'minister of the word'. Satan filled their hearts to lie unto the HS. They perished.
Colossians 4:14
14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.
2 Timothy 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
Demas, same state; 'having loved the world (more than Christ), left us'. He took his hand off the plow and looked back, much like Lot's wife.
U do understand that you have just validated that no one knows who the elect people of God are. In that, you agree that the church local has internal and external distinction, i.e. visible and invisible-visible, being made up of all kinds of peoples. To deny this just goes against simple logic.