RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Could you give some examples? I'm against CN, but I find it hard to believe they could be supporting globalist agendas.
WCF and the Antichrist
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Could you give some examples? I'm against CN, but I find it hard to believe they could be supporting globalist agendas.
St. Gerdt
Puritan Board Freshman
I was referring to the RCs' globalist ecclesiastical agenda, not any globalist political agenda. I do not save or record examples when I see them, but social media—especially X/Twitter—is full of RCs and EOs blaming the reformation for the current state of affairs.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
I see all of that, but I don't see the connection to CN.
PDF here:
The historicist view had to be revised, and idealist recapitulation supplies us with the tools to do that. At the same time I think what Rev. Macleod is lamenting goes deeper than the problem of pessimism. The truth is that idealism itself needs an historical context to ground the interpretation of the text, otherwise you can make it apply to anything you please. I think that is where preterism becomes useful. It gives a concrete historical situation to make sense of the religious context of the visions.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks for the pdf link, Matthew.
You had said, "The truth is that idealism itself needs an historical context to ground the interpretation of the text, otherwise you can make it apply to anything you please." I appreciate that!
The issue is, from where do we take the "historical context" needed?
I think the better context is found in the text of Revelation itself, just as the Jews had to look in the earlier prophecies of Daniel to discern that Antiochus Epiphanes would come, defile the temple, and himself be destroyed — as foretold by the LORD. Even so, I believe we also have a better historical context to ground our interpretation.
You had said, "The truth is that idealism itself needs an historical context to ground the interpretation of the text, otherwise you can make it apply to anything you please." I appreciate that!
The issue is, from where do we take the "historical context" needed?
I think the better context is found in the text of Revelation itself, just as the Jews had to look in the earlier prophecies of Daniel to discern that Antiochus Epiphanes would come, defile the temple, and himself be destroyed — as foretold by the LORD. Even so, I believe we also have a better historical context to ground our interpretation.
Steve, No doubt that is true, but grammatico-historical exegesis requires historical context to make sense of the text. Revelation itself gives us numerous internal markers that there is a Jewish background, especially in terms of eschatological expectation on the inheritance of the land. Moreover, the visions related to Antiochus in Daniel are a part of an idealistic framework which merges well into the Messianic future and includes the apostacy of the covenant people. This is pronounced in the New Testament in terms of the sin of the covenanted nation coming to full measure. Once the text is grounded in this context it restrains historical applications so as to eliminate soothsaying. It provides covenantal entities that can be discerned in terms of moral identity and continuity.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Re “the better historical context found in the text of Revelation itself” :
I argue that a lack of understanding concerning the word “sorceries” (Greek, pharmakeia, φαρμακεία) and its cognates in The Book of Revelation have led to overlooking key elements in some of its prophecies, and thus inability to appreciate their import and relevance to our times. It is accepted that the “eclectic” or “modified idealist” view (Beale)[1] allows some departure from the idealist, though as to where the line is drawn there is no clear consensus. Beale himself says, “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” [2]
1] G.K. Beale, New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation (Eerdmans 1999), pp 48, 49.
2] Ibid., p 49.
Basically my view is this: the pharmakeia of Revelation 18:23 and 9:21 (a variant in the latter reading φάρμακον pharmakon – drugs – does not affect translation) are the very drugs used and heralded by the sixties and seventies counterculture of the U.S. that were exported into most of the world and which – in retrospect – are seen to constitute a prophesied event clearly depicted in Scripture. The Greek pharmakeia is generally translated “sorceries” in the New Testament.
The explosion of these drugs onto the world scene was an event (the term now used for military-scale biological, chemical, or nuclear events) that befell nations around the globe through the drug-energized sixties generation in America, as this potent counterculture permeated these nations through its music and musicians, literature, art, film, and other culture-bearing media and vehicles, as well as spiritual teachers and gurus (think Timothy Leary and Baba Ram Dass / Richard Alpert, both Harvard professors). The nations and cultures of the world were leavened from within by the exciting new consciousness of the sixties and the Woodstock spirit exported into them, but it was a Trojan Horse filled with the denizens of Hell. Its impact was, in the psychic realm, the equivalent of a massive nuclear detonation. . . . The damage done is irreversible.
The darkening zeitgeist of the world (“spirit of the age”) that we live in now – 2024 – is the direct result of this massive demonic incursion into our midst beginning over half a century ago. It has been developing an agenda over this period. What they hate most are Christ and God, then humankind, and after that peaceful societal order – domestic tranquility – enforced by law and government, as the holy, human, and orderly go against both their nature and their goal for the planet.
Per the symbolism of Revelation, “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” – the spiritual significance of the great cloud of smoke was the darkening of the hearts and minds by demonic presence and influence, in all humankind but those who had “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4).
We can look back on this historic event and see a phenomena that has impacted the entire world, and is still going strong, as grass, hash, and the other psychedelics / entheogens are increasingly legalized, a good number being touted as “therapeutic”, i.e., basically good for you! This surely is part of the “strong delusion” spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:11, which we can witness in many of its aspects in our days.
In Revelation 9:15, a connector between the 5th and 6th trumpet judgments, we see what commentators consider a distinct time-stamp: demonic activity prepared to be loosed “for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” – even though they cannot identify what it refers to.
This is “the better historical context found in the text of Revelation itself” I mentioned earlier. It may be new to many, though I have been writing on it for a number of years now.
I prefer my view to yours, Matthew. It makes more sense.
I argue that a lack of understanding concerning the word “sorceries” (Greek, pharmakeia, φαρμακεία) and its cognates in The Book of Revelation have led to overlooking key elements in some of its prophecies, and thus inability to appreciate their import and relevance to our times. It is accepted that the “eclectic” or “modified idealist” view (Beale)[1] allows some departure from the idealist, though as to where the line is drawn there is no clear consensus. Beale himself says, “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” [2]
1] G.K. Beale, New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation (Eerdmans 1999), pp 48, 49.
2] Ibid., p 49.
Basically my view is this: the pharmakeia of Revelation 18:23 and 9:21 (a variant in the latter reading φάρμακον pharmakon – drugs – does not affect translation) are the very drugs used and heralded by the sixties and seventies counterculture of the U.S. that were exported into most of the world and which – in retrospect – are seen to constitute a prophesied event clearly depicted in Scripture. The Greek pharmakeia is generally translated “sorceries” in the New Testament.
The explosion of these drugs onto the world scene was an event (the term now used for military-scale biological, chemical, or nuclear events) that befell nations around the globe through the drug-energized sixties generation in America, as this potent counterculture permeated these nations through its music and musicians, literature, art, film, and other culture-bearing media and vehicles, as well as spiritual teachers and gurus (think Timothy Leary and Baba Ram Dass / Richard Alpert, both Harvard professors). The nations and cultures of the world were leavened from within by the exciting new consciousness of the sixties and the Woodstock spirit exported into them, but it was a Trojan Horse filled with the denizens of Hell. Its impact was, in the psychic realm, the equivalent of a massive nuclear detonation. . . . The damage done is irreversible.
The darkening zeitgeist of the world (“spirit of the age”) that we live in now – 2024 – is the direct result of this massive demonic incursion into our midst beginning over half a century ago. It has been developing an agenda over this period. What they hate most are Christ and God, then humankind, and after that peaceful societal order – domestic tranquility – enforced by law and government, as the holy, human, and orderly go against both their nature and their goal for the planet.
Per the symbolism of Revelation, “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” – the spiritual significance of the great cloud of smoke was the darkening of the hearts and minds by demonic presence and influence, in all humankind but those who had “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4).
We can look back on this historic event and see a phenomena that has impacted the entire world, and is still going strong, as grass, hash, and the other psychedelics / entheogens are increasingly legalized, a good number being touted as “therapeutic”, i.e., basically good for you! This surely is part of the “strong delusion” spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:11, which we can witness in many of its aspects in our days.
In Revelation 9:15, a connector between the 5th and 6th trumpet judgments, we see what commentators consider a distinct time-stamp: demonic activity prepared to be loosed “for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” – even though they cannot identify what it refers to.
This is “the better historical context found in the text of Revelation itself” I mentioned earlier. It may be new to many, though I have been writing on it for a number of years now.
I prefer my view to yours, Matthew. It makes more sense.
Steve, I understand your perspective as you have come from that scene, but your view could only appeal to people who have shared your unique experience. This would certainly have been foreign to the Jewish-Christian context of the first century.
A more feasible context is the land of promise. Lev. 26:18 says, "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Josh. 6:4 says, "And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets." The seven trumpets are tied to the land of promise. As the sounding of the trumpets signalled the dispossessing of the Canaanites, so the sounding of the trumpets signals the dispossessing of the covenant-breaking Jews. Meanwhile, when the seventh angel sounds the kingdoms of this world are taken into possession of the Lord and His anointed, even as the seventh sounding of the trumpet once signalled the possession of the land for Israel.
Our Lord has already given the key to the fifth trumpet in Matthew 12, where He teaches on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the men of Nineveh rising to condemn "this generation" in the judgment, and the return of "seven other spirits more wicked than himself."
A more feasible context is the land of promise. Lev. 26:18 says, "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Josh. 6:4 says, "And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets." The seven trumpets are tied to the land of promise. As the sounding of the trumpets signalled the dispossessing of the Canaanites, so the sounding of the trumpets signals the dispossessing of the covenant-breaking Jews. Meanwhile, when the seventh angel sounds the kingdoms of this world are taken into possession of the Lord and His anointed, even as the seventh sounding of the trumpet once signalled the possession of the land for Israel.
Our Lord has already given the key to the fifth trumpet in Matthew 12, where He teaches on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the men of Nineveh rising to condemn "this generation" in the judgment, and the return of "seven other spirits more wicked than himself."
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Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Hello Matthew,
Sorcery / witchcraft was an issue for the children of Israel. In the LXX (Septuagint) Greek pharmakeia (enchantment through the use of drugs of a particular kind) was warned against Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch [sorcerer] to live.". In Chaldean Babylon it was a common thing:
The witchcraft / sorcery of the pagan demon-worshipping nations around Israel was part of their demon-infestation, and they were under severe judgment, as came upon them.
It had come upon the 1960s U.S., not merely as a local "scene" – for multitudes of professional people, politicians, therapists, academics, etc etc all partook of those potions. It was for the U.S. and U.K. exporting this demonic practice – "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived" (Rev 18:23) – that a like catastrophic judgment shall come upon the latter-day Babylon.
Neither is it today a local scene, but a rampant world-wide phenomena. The devil has come into the human collective consciousness in force, and it remains to be seen what shall emerge from it.
Sorcery / witchcraft was an issue for the children of Israel. In the LXX (Septuagint) Greek pharmakeia (enchantment through the use of drugs of a particular kind) was warned against Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch [sorcerer] to live.". In Chaldean Babylon it was a common thing:
But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day,
the loss of children, and widowhood:
they shall come upon thee in their perfection
for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments (Isa 47:9 KJV)
The witchcraft / sorcery of the pagan demon-worshipping nations around Israel was part of their demon-infestation, and they were under severe judgment, as came upon them.
It had come upon the 1960s U.S., not merely as a local "scene" – for multitudes of professional people, politicians, therapists, academics, etc etc all partook of those potions. It was for the U.S. and U.K. exporting this demonic practice – "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived" (Rev 18:23) – that a like catastrophic judgment shall come upon the latter-day Babylon.
Neither is it today a local scene, but a rampant world-wide phenomena. The devil has come into the human collective consciousness in force, and it remains to be seen what shall emerge from it.
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It is undoubtedly true that nations once gained freedom from a pagan worldview through the blessed light which Christianity brought to them. For these nations to rebel against Christian teachings and morality will entail a return to paganism and the evils it carries in its bosom. In that respect we can see Providence working in these nations as it did with covenant-breaking Israel and making their last state to be worse than the first. But to understand this application we must carefully observe the original historical context in which God reveals His judgments in Scripture. Providence is not prophecy, and yet the same God speaks in prophecy and works in Providence.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Matthew, I deeply appreciate "consistent" Idealism, as it rescued eschatology from the historicism of the reformers. The drawback of that view, as I have maintained previously, is that it completely excises any specific historical events from its symbolic prophecies, save what is written in the 7 letters, and the return of Christ.
As valuable a technique as recapitulated dynamics of Gospel proclamation, persecution, and judgment, as well as the progress of history from the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to the final war between Him and our adversary repeatedly looked at from different vantages – all symbolically portrayed – as crucially valuable as these brilliant techniques are, to, on principle, excise any prophesied historical events meant to be discerned in hindsight, removes any real prophecy from the Final Prophecy (Rev 1:3; Rev 22:18, 19, etc) itself. It has gotten a bad reputation in many circles for that, and has turned many off to the modern Amillennial school, even in its "modified" or "eclectic" position, per Beale et al.
To try to remedy that, I wrote UNCOVERING PROPHETIC DETAILS IN REVELATION: Restoring confidence in the applicability of John’s Apocalypse, the final prophecy.
As valuable a technique as recapitulated dynamics of Gospel proclamation, persecution, and judgment, as well as the progress of history from the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to the final war between Him and our adversary repeatedly looked at from different vantages – all symbolically portrayed – as crucially valuable as these brilliant techniques are, to, on principle, excise any prophesied historical events meant to be discerned in hindsight, removes any real prophecy from the Final Prophecy (Rev 1:3; Rev 22:18, 19, etc) itself. It has gotten a bad reputation in many circles for that, and has turned many off to the modern Amillennial school, even in its "modified" or "eclectic" position, per Beale et al.
To try to remedy that, I wrote UNCOVERING PROPHETIC DETAILS IN REVELATION: Restoring confidence in the applicability of John’s Apocalypse, the final prophecy.
Steve, the reformers' view at least had history on its side. They were well equipped in this respect. This meant they could overleap their own experiences to some extent and look objectively on what the book of Revelation was teaching overall. There are general currents in history to be observed and they are best observed in the light of God's judgments. It is worthwhile looking into the historicist viewpoint to broaden one's outlook to see beyond one's own time and place.
TheInquirer
Puritan Board Junior
It depends on what it is for. If one is looking for something exhaustive Matthew Poole's Synopsis has been translated in "The Exegetical Labors of the Reverend Matthew Poole." He provides the various perspectives on each verse so you are able to compare different views as you go along.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
If the discerning among the Jews could see — in the prophesied-by-Daniel historical events of their day — Antiochus Epiphanes and his activities in the mid-160s BC, how is that different from seeing a prophesied historical event in easier-to-discern-hindsight in our times?
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
The only difference is having the discernment to spot and identify it. And, as I have noted, Christians who live clean lives usually are not familiar with sorcery as the world is; in other words, they do not know what it is!
_______
Matthew, you said, “There are general currents in history to be observed and they are best observed in the light of God’s judgments.” We are both in agreement on this. The issues are, Which currents in history? And, Which judgments?
If we are dismissive of judgments in our time – even half a century back – we blindfold ourselves, and are rendered eschatologically useless as regards details. An example is the 5th trumpet judgment of Revelation 9, which is the massive influx of demonic presence and influence, which was “prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” (Rev 9:15) as the fifth trumpet’s deception and madness gave way to the killing of the sixth trump, where a third of men were slain. It took some 60 years for the effects of the fifth to usher in the deaths of the sixth, which we shall see with our own eyes.
What was the event causing this exponential increase of spiritual darkening of unregenerate mankind? Will it be said it was one of gradual increase throughout the NT church age, merely recapitulated incremental increases?
Even though the Lord crushed the head of Satan by His cross and resurrection, until the apostles and the early church began to bear witness to this glorious victory – which bearing witness has continued and increased over the last 2,000 years – but before this preaching of the Gospel the world was shrouded in darkness, and under the dominion of Satan. Before this worldwide Gospel preaching the captivity of the lost race of Adam was thorough, ironclad.
What we see in the fifth trumpet judgment is an additional darkening, fortified by the hordes of demonic creatures loosed when the key to the abyss opened that shaft. One could well say that the power of darkness – hell itself – arose and entered into the collective consciousness of humankind, in which it is now manifesting its ways and its presence. This everywhere – across the globe – save one place: those humans that have “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4 KJV).
The additional darkening was toward a specific end: after the symbolic 1,000-year period of the NT church age, Satan was loosed for a little season . . . to go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, as he could not do that – to nations – before his chains were removed (cf. Rev 20:3 KJV). This additional darkening allowed him – beyond the deceiving of non-elect individuals, which ability he was permitted to retain during his chaining – to deceive very nations so as to enlist them to wage a final war against the camp of the saints. This final assault is called Armageddon (Rev 16:16).
This final atrocity has two purposes – to reveal to all, the attackers of His children, and those who approve of it, the righteousness of the returning Lord’s wrath against them, and also to purify His precious bride in a crucible of affliction, their faith to be purified like gold in the furnace.
_______
Matthew, you said, “There are general currents in history to be observed and they are best observed in the light of God’s judgments.” We are both in agreement on this. The issues are, Which currents in history? And, Which judgments?
If we are dismissive of judgments in our time – even half a century back – we blindfold ourselves, and are rendered eschatologically useless as regards details. An example is the 5th trumpet judgment of Revelation 9, which is the massive influx of demonic presence and influence, which was “prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” (Rev 9:15) as the fifth trumpet’s deception and madness gave way to the killing of the sixth trump, where a third of men were slain. It took some 60 years for the effects of the fifth to usher in the deaths of the sixth, which we shall see with our own eyes.
What was the event causing this exponential increase of spiritual darkening of unregenerate mankind? Will it be said it was one of gradual increase throughout the NT church age, merely recapitulated incremental increases?
Even though the Lord crushed the head of Satan by His cross and resurrection, until the apostles and the early church began to bear witness to this glorious victory – which bearing witness has continued and increased over the last 2,000 years – but before this preaching of the Gospel the world was shrouded in darkness, and under the dominion of Satan. Before this worldwide Gospel preaching the captivity of the lost race of Adam was thorough, ironclad.
What we see in the fifth trumpet judgment is an additional darkening, fortified by the hordes of demonic creatures loosed when the key to the abyss opened that shaft. One could well say that the power of darkness – hell itself – arose and entered into the collective consciousness of humankind, in which it is now manifesting its ways and its presence. This everywhere – across the globe – save one place: those humans that have “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4 KJV).
The additional darkening was toward a specific end: after the symbolic 1,000-year period of the NT church age, Satan was loosed for a little season . . . to go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, as he could not do that – to nations – before his chains were removed (cf. Rev 20:3 KJV). This additional darkening allowed him – beyond the deceiving of non-elect individuals, which ability he was permitted to retain during his chaining – to deceive very nations so as to enlist them to wage a final war against the camp of the saints. This final assault is called Armageddon (Rev 16:16).
This final atrocity has two purposes – to reveal to all, the attackers of His children, and those who approve of it, the righteousness of the returning Lord’s wrath against them, and also to purify His precious bride in a crucible of affliction, their faith to be purified like gold in the furnace.
D
Deleted member 14259
Guest
I'd be interested to hear more about this (perhaps in a different thread?). On social media I frequently see many RC and Orthobros who think that the Protestant Reformation was the worst thing since meatloaf. A few weeks ago, I saw an bitter argument where an anon Catholic started blaming Calvinists for WWI, WWII, European colonialism, etc. I'm pretty sure Robert Spencer, Matt Walsh and some other Conservatives believe/promote some form of this thought process. (Not all of it necessarily)
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
And Orthobros say the Filioque is responsible for Hitler.
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D
Deleted member 14259
Guest
Interesting. Why's that? Usually, Martin Luther is primary blamed for Hitler from what I've seen.
Steve, I am not dismissive of judgments in our time. My main concern is to understand them within the flow of history, not as one off events which can be cherry picked to confirm one's own judgments. This is why idealism needs to be historically grounded in the first century as the transition period from old to new dispensation. We can understand God's judgment of the nations in the light of Israel.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks for engaging me in this discussion, Matthew. I'm going to wind down posting in this thread as my recent posts are off topic. I can see no progress for discerning the Antichrist / Man of sin, which is what this thread sought to do. However, I will start a new thread, A closer look at Revelation’s fifth trumpet in chapter 9, as that is where I have been focusing of late. And I will take a little from my recent posts here in doing that.
Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread!
Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread!
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Speustais
Puritan Board Freshman
Fascinating article, thank you for posting. I was blissfully unaware that the RC had such a hand in migration policy, naiveté on my part. I have a few quesitons from the original article if I may - I'd been under the impression that a source of ire at the Southern US border was that so many of the migrants seem to be from countries not in Central or South America? As these countries of origin are not Catholic might this affect the theory of adding mass numers of RC adherents to the US population? Or might it simply be sufficient to simply dilute the proportion of protestant believers in the population at large? Or are the actual numbers of RC migrating much more dominant than I realised?
As to the Antichrist and potential candidates who may co-opt, work with, sideline or supersede the Papacy, has anyone got any thoughts on the World Economic Forum? Keen to learn from wiser heads than mine.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Hello Mike, in brief (I'm about to hit the sack on this side of the world), it is not only RC adherents, but any and all who want to get into the U.S. — even those on terrorist watch lists. As I mentioned in post 5 of this thread, the purpose is to ruin the autonomy, self-governance, and national identity of, not only the U.S., but other nations as well.
- Status
