What about Christmas Decorations in Church?

[AThornquist]

I don't care either way. I'm grateful to worship in song and hear the Word of God preached. It's wonderful to be Western Christians who have such stupid things to argue about when most of this world doesn't even have Christ.

 

[Phil D.]

I truly love the annual PB Christmas threads along with the quaint anti-Christmas avatars. And now the annual debate includes the color of paint on the wall. It really doesn't get much better than this.

Perhaps we also start a "I'm a better Puritan than you" thread. Whoever doesn't paint their walls probably will win this one.

Now I'm waiting for someone to tell me that my wig powder is a violation of the RPW.

I know I started this thread with pure, teachable motives, but I'll try to remember to clear my next one with you guys before I post it. Merry Christmas!

 

[Herald]

I truly love the annual PB Christmas threads along with the quaint anti-Christmas avatars. And now the annual debate includes the color of paint on the wall. It really doesn't get much better than this.

Perhaps we also start a "I'm a better Puritan than you" thread. Whoever doesn't paint their walls probably will win this one.

Now I'm waiting for someone to tell me that my wig powder is a violation of the RPW.

I know I started this thread with pure, teachable motives, but I'll try to remember to clear my next one with you guys before I post it. Merry Christmas!

Chill, Phil. Tim wasn't responding to your OP. He was responding to my tongue-in-cheek at the predictable devolution of a well intenioned thread.

Sent using my most excellent Android device.

 

[Poimen]

Christmas and its attendant decorations do not contribute to the upkeep of the building. They are a cultural practice i.e. akin to placing an American flag in the sanctuary. They have nothing to do with the business of the church and, in fact, communicates adherence to something that is not representative of Christianity (even if you agree with the remembrance of Christ's birth on December 25).

Is "contribute to the upkeep of the building" your standard for what is allowed in a place of worship?

If you draw the line at building upkeep and basic human needs, that is fine. I would imagine, however, that most people who are anti-Christmas decorations will allow for other decorative items in a sanctuary. Like a stained glass window, a floral arrangement, decorative light fixtures, etc.

No, it is not. It is simply one way of distinguishing between what is, in my opinion, useful (paint) and what is not (Christmas decorations).

On a more general note: we can make fun of this subject all we want, but the fact of the matter is that our Puritan forefathers strongly opposed Christmas as well as many of our Reformed forebears. We, on the other hand, have become so accustomed to Christmas that it has become an essential (?) part of our worship and family life. So, in light of the attainments of past generations, it is good in fact that we contemplate whether or not this practice truly has any merit.

 

[Tripel]

It's wonderful to be Western Christians who have such stupid things to argue about . . .

What's "stupid" are not the things about which being argued, but the fact that such things have to be argued. That's what's "stupid."

Just want to clarify this......Josh, are you saying it's "stupid" that those like yourself are having to argue against the notion (from people like me) that it's OK to have Christmas decorations in the church?

 

[Covenant Joel]

I'm saying it's "stupid" that there's even a debate when it's clear "Christmas" has no place in the church, nor as a religious celebration in any context.

Perhaps the word "stupid" shouldn't be bandied about by either group so lightly. Perhaps we're brothers in Christ with genuine disagreements over the matter. You say it's clear, many others would say it's not so clear. Perhaps we all need a little charity, regardless of what our position on this issue is.

 

[Tripel]

I'm saying it's "stupid" that there's even a debate when it's clear "Christmas" has no place in the church, nor as a religious celebration in any context.

It may be clear to you, but it's certainly not so clear in the reformed church at large. Just look at how divided the Puritan Board is on the issue of Christmas.

If it's such a clear issue, and it's "stupid" that the debate even exists, why don't you add something about Christmas to the membership rules?

 

[Philip]

I'm saying it's "stupid" that there's even a debate when it's clear "Christmas" has no place in the church, nor as a religious celebration in any context.

It isn't clear. Hence the debate.

I prefer not to bind consciences either way.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Dear Friend,

I agree, which is why I placed quotation marks around stupid, only reflecting the original use of the word by a previous post-er.

I understand your reasoning, but I doubt if this is still the most charitable way to put it. Likewise for those who originally used the term.

As for it being clear or not, I think the Scriptures are clear that nowhere in Scripture is Christ-mass warranted as a day set apart for the remembrance and special worship of the Lord in the context of His incarnation. The Scriptures are clear, as are the Westminster Standards, that the only holy day is that day, the Lord's holy day, set apart by Himself for Himself and only that day in which He's given His people to sanctify them. Simply put, it shouldn't be a religious day (unless of course the 25th falls upon the Lord's Day, but then the celebration is pertaining to all of Christ's work, not His incarnation and not to mass). It is even more assaulting when churches decorate their halls with "Christmas" decor and press "Christmasy" things without Scriptural warrant upon the consciences of the churchgoers. No session, presbytery, or other ecclesiastical body has the right to do or authorize such.

My point isn't to debate the issue with you. I'm not even stating my opinion on the issue. I certainly understand where you are coming, having grown up with that perspective. But I also understand that there are many faithful brothers and sisters--even within the Reformed world, with whom you would agree on most things--who would not agree that celebrating Christmas is a violation such as you argue. I understand that it is very clear to you that they are mistaken. But they may view you in much the same way, so perhaps we ought to show more charity on the issue...from both sides, not yours alone.

 

[Tripel]

I may be opposing the Puritans' position on Christmas, but I'm content siding with Ligon Duncan, RC Sproul, and the many others on this clear issue.

 

[PresbyDane]

Christmass time is one of those times a year, where my bibliofile tendensies overwright.
If for nothing else, "go christmass, I might get a book!"

 

[Rich Koster]

I wish I could hibernate through all of the nonsense that springs up every December, especially the phony warm fuzzies at work. I wish the popish mass/ winter solstice hybrid would go bye-bye. I think I'll watch "Homey Claus" on You Tube and say "bah humbug" and leave it at that.

 

[LeeJUk]

I'm about to solve this entire thing.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Your welcome

Merry Christmas (or Christ-mass if you prefer)

 

[Poimen]

Lee:

These verses from Romans 14 are not to the point of the op: the question is not "may we put up decorations in our homes?" but "may we put up decorations in the church?" Paul is giving us liberty to esteem one day above another in the liberty of our conscience but this does not establish that this may be done in the church. That is "each one" may practice the day as they see fit, but that is a far cry from foisting it upon others in the church setting when they are offended by it and, furthermore, believe it to be a violation of God's Word because it is not commanded in scripture and undermines their liberty as Christians.

Furthermore, one could contest that Paul had holy days in mind when he penned these words. Were early Christians debating about the propriety of extra services outside of the canon or Jewish holy days from the Old Testament? The latter seems more likely given the fact that it is explicitly raised in Colossians 2 & Galatians 4.

 

[LeeJUk]

Well Poimen your right that Paul was saying this in the sense of an individuals liberty but I also think the principal applies here. I believe each church has the liberty to put up Christmas decorations or not put them up since the scriptures are not clear on the issue. Therefore those churches and denominations that do not celebrate Christmas should not judge those churches that do, and vice versa.

You can very well say to put Christmas decorations up in Church is to force Christmas on these people who disagree on scriptural grounds with it. Do you make allowance however for the people on the other side of the argument? What about church members who do feel they want to celebrate the advent calendar and Christ's birth at this time of year? Shouldn't the church make allowances for these people? Are these peoples liberty not being restricted should christmas practically be ignored, taught against and frowned upon?

 

[Andres]

You can very well say to put Christmas decorations up in Church is to force Christmas on these people who disagree on scriptural grounds with it. Do you make allowance however for the people on the other side of the argument? What about church members who do feel they want to celebrate the advent calendar and Christ's birth at this time of year? Shouldn't the church make allowances for these people? Are these peoples liberty not being restricted should christmas practically be ignored, taught against and frowned upon?

Lee, I know you are studying to be a minister. When that time comes, what will you tell your congregation if you have several members who desire to decorate the church (including the sanctuary) with all manner of Halloween decorum? What if they want to celebrate Halloween, not only in their personal home, but also in the church? Would you make allowances for these people? If you answer no, do you think you are restricting those people's liberties?

 

[LeeJUk]

Theres a big difference between Halloween which has nothing to do with Christ and a true celebration of the birth of Christ.

 

[Edward]

Now I'm waiting for someone to tell me that my wig powder is a violation of the RPW.

It does look more like what a Charles supporting Cavalier would wear rather than what one would find on a Roundhead.

 

[Philip]

Now I'm waiting for someone to tell me that my wig powder is a violation of the RPW.

It does look more like what a Charles supporting Cavalier would wear rather than what one would find on a Roundhead.

Indeed:

Charles I was a Cavalier king and therefore had a small pointed beard, long flowing curls, a large, flat, flowing hat and gay attire. The roundheads, on the other hand, were clean-shaven and wore tall, conical hats, white ties and sombre garments. Under these circumstances a Civil War was inevitable.

 

[Andres]

Theres a big difference between Halloween which has nothing to do with Christ and a true celebration of the birth of Christ.

my brother, please explain to me where you get that Christmas has anything to do with Christ? You will find as much support in scripture for the celebration of Halloween as you will for the celebration of Christmas. For me, this is exactly the point of this thread. Christmas is not, nor was it ever a "Christian" holiday and as such it has no place in the church. In your previous post you mentioned giving the congregation liberty in what they choose to celebrate. If this is your stance, then your congregation would have just as much precedence to celebrate Halloween in the church as they would Christmas.

 

[calgal]

Theres a big difference between Halloween which has nothing to do with Christ and a true celebration of the birth of Christ.

my brother, please explain to me where you get that Christmas has anything to do with Christ? You will find as much support in scripture for the celebration of Halloween as you will for the celebration of Christ. For me, this is exactly the point of this thread. Christmas is not, nor was it ever a "Christian" holiday and as such it has no place in the church. In your previous post you mentioned giving the congregation liberty in what they choose to celebrate. If this is your stance, then your congregation would have just as much precedence to celebrate Halloween in the church as they would Christmas.

Wow. My JW coworker would be enjoying your sentiments and calling you brother as would our muslim clients.

 

[Marrow Man]

It does look more like what a Charles supporting Cavalier would wear rather than what one would find on a Roundhead.

Them's fighting words!

And you're about 100 years off!

 

[au5t1n]

Theres a big difference between Halloween which has nothing to do with Christ and a true celebration of the birth of Christ.

my brother, please explain to me where you get that Christmas has anything to do with Christ? You will find as much support in scripture for the celebration of Halloween as you will for the celebration of Christ. For me, this is exactly the point of this thread. Christmas is not, nor was it ever a "Christian" holiday and as such it has no place in the church. In your previous post you mentioned giving the congregation liberty in what they choose to celebrate. If this is your stance, then your congregation would have just as much precedence to celebrate Halloween in the church as they would Christmas.

Wow. My JW coworker would be enjoying your sentiments and calling you brother as would our muslim clients.

Yeah, this is why I believe very strongly in praying to Mary.

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

However, I do think saying Christmas is not a Christian holiday is playing word games. It is a holiday in which several Christian traditions celebrate the birth of Christ. It may be an unwarranted Christian holiday, but a Christian holiday it is. Halloween does not celebrate an event in Christ's life.

 

[Marrow Man]

I truly love the annual PB Christmas threads along with the quaint anti-Christmas avatars. And now the annual debate includes the color of paint on the wall. It really doesn't get much better than this.

Perhaps we should also start a "I'm a better Puritan than you" thread. Whoever doesn't paint their walls probably will win this one.

Now I'm waiting for someone to tell me that my wig powder is a violation of the RPW.

I know I started this thread with pure, teachable motives, but I'll try to remember to clear my next one with you guys before I post it. Merry Christmas!

Chill, Phil. Tim wasn't responding to your OP. He was responding to my tongue-in-cheek at the predictable devolution of a well intenioned thread.

Yep, that about sums it up. Phil, that remark had nothing to do with you. Your OP posed a good question. But this sort of thread almost always seems to devolve. Hence, my "I'm a better Puritan than you" comment. A way of lamenting the disappointment, if you will.

Also, it should have been clear that I was not being completely serious. No one here is checking wig powder.

Are they?

 

[Edward]

No one here is checking wig powder.

Are they?

Of course not. But just for the files, what brand of powder is it?

 

[Marrow Man]

But just for the files, what brand of powder is it?

I'll never tell!

 

[LeeJUk]

Theres a big difference between Halloween which has nothing to do with Christ and a true celebration of the birth of Christ.

my brother, please explain to me where you get that Christmas has anything to do with Christ? You will find as much support in scripture for the celebration of Halloween as you will for the celebration of Christ. For me, this is exactly the point of this thread. Christmas is not, nor was it ever a "Christian" holiday and as such it has no place in the church. In your previous post you mentioned giving the congregation liberty in what they choose to celebrate. If this is your stance, then your congregation would have just as much precedence to celebrate Halloween in the church as they would Christmas.

I agree the bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Christmas but it doesn't necessarily tell us to celebrate Good Friday or Easter either. Apart from perhaps indirectly in the Lords day but of course Easter as practiced is something different from the Lords day altogether.

Next I would draw your attention to the fact the bible also says nothing about ministers conducting funerals, weddings (Christ attended a wedding in Cana, only in a guest capacity though), says nothing about celebrating the reformation and several other things. It doesn't mean however its wrong to do these things.

I do think its right to celebrate the birth of Christ, and even though Christ wasn't born on December 25th this is as good a time as any to do it in my opinion and there is nothing wrong with it. As long as no idolatrous images are involved and such.

This will be my last message on the issue and we'll need to just separate on the issue in brotherly peace and charity.

 

[py3ak]

It isn't clear. Hence the debate.

That's rather an absurd remark, unless you mean it of subjective apprehension. Many things are clearly taught in Scripture yet aren't confessed by all. We cannot make man's understanding the determiner of God's truth.

To everyone, let me say that however trivial or emotional this topic is, there is no excuse for hasty, bad-tempered posting or seriously putting forward bad arguments.

 

[Andres]

Lee,
Ministers conducting funerals and weddings are outside of the Lord's Day corporate worship. If a church wanted to have a wedding/funeral in lieu of Sunday worship, I would heartily object to it, just as I would oppose a reformation day celebration in place of normal corporate worship. I do not have a problem if people choose to celebrate some elements of xmas outside of church in their homes. I personally do not, but i see it as an issue of liberty when it's an issue of what families choose to do in their own homes. What I am objecting to is the co-mingling of christmas celebrations w/corporate worship.
As for celebrating the birth of Christ, while certainly commendable, i think it's important to acknowledge the entire scope of His life, death, and resurrection. This often gets left out at Christmastime.

 

[TomVols]

As for celebrating the birth of Christ, while certainly commendable, i think it's important to acknowledge the entire scope of His life, death, and resurrection. This often gets left out at Christmastime.

This is helpful advice. During Advent, we celebrate Lord's Supper to remind people that the manger leads to a cross. It is also a wonderful time to teach the sovereign purpose of God (Gal 4:4-5) in redemptive history.

Two other general remarks (not directed at you, Andres) that I hope do not offend. First, it is indeed curious to me that people appeal to the NT to teach about what belongs in the church/sanctuary when the NT church had no church of its own. My IFB brothers who rail against fellowship meals based on Paul's "let a man eat a home" instruction are sort of in the same boat. Second, it's indeed a bit of a blessing that we do have buildings now to debate about since so much of the Christian world can't and don't meet publicly in their own buildings as we do for fear of their lives. Reminder: pray for your persecuted sisters and brothers around the world, especially those who are in prison for being set free by Christ.