Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
Sorry I'm a bit clueless on this. What is a good working defination?
What is Arminian?
- Thread starter Doodle Bug
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A_Wild_Boar
Puritan Board Freshman
One whos theology puts mans will above Gods.
Ok so its not the proper definition. But certainly true of their theology.
[Edited on 4-9-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]
Ok so its not the proper definition. But certainly true of their theology.
[Edited on 4-9-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]
wsw201
Puritan Board Senior
A short hand working definition of modern Arminianism is: Man chooses God out of his own free will. The opposite is also true that man can reject God out of his own free will.
In the modern Arminian scheme, man is not totally depraved, there is a spark of good in all men. Grace is not irresistible, man of out of his own free will can accept or reject it, but God knows who will and won't reject the Gospel message as He looks down the corridor of time to see how someone responds but it is not predetermined who will respond. Salvation is possible for all mankind not just for a preselect group. And perserverance is based on mans ability to keep the faith.
Some of the things you hear in Arminian Evangelism are, "Have you found Christ? ", "Have you made a decision for Christ? ". All of this is based on the fact that a person must be persuaded to believe because of their free will. God will not force anyone to believe, but God is holding out His hand waiting for a person to decide and "accept Christ".
There is alot more to this and I'm sure others will add there thoughts, but this should give you a good feel for their position.
In the modern Arminian scheme, man is not totally depraved, there is a spark of good in all men. Grace is not irresistible, man of out of his own free will can accept or reject it, but God knows who will and won't reject the Gospel message as He looks down the corridor of time to see how someone responds but it is not predetermined who will respond. Salvation is possible for all mankind not just for a preselect group. And perserverance is based on mans ability to keep the faith.
Some of the things you hear in Arminian Evangelism are, "Have you found Christ? ", "Have you made a decision for Christ? ". All of this is based on the fact that a person must be persuaded to believe because of their free will. God will not force anyone to believe, but God is holding out His hand waiting for a person to decide and "accept Christ".
There is alot more to this and I'm sure others will add there thoughts, but this should give you a good feel for their position.
A_Wild_Boar
Puritan Board Freshman
Spurgeon made a god point about Arminianism. About prayer.
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You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer-for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,
"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."
That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that.
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[Edited on 4-9-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]
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You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer-for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,
"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."
That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that.
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[Edited on 4-9-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Arminianism = Fallen Man Syndrome.
[quote:8119308405][i:8119308405]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:8119308405]
A short hand working definition of modern Arminianism is: Man chooses God out of his own free will. The opposite is also true that man can reject God out of his own free will.
In the modern Arminian scheme, man is not totally depraved, there is a spark of good in all men. Grace is not irresistible, man of out of his own free will can accept or reject it, but God knows who will and won't reject the Gospel message as He looks down the corridor of time to see how someone responds but it is not predetermined who will respond. Salvation is possible for all mankind not just for a preselect group. And perserverance is based on mans ability to keep the faith.
Some of the things you hear in Arminian Evangelism are, "Have you found Christ? ", "Have you made a decision for Christ? ". All of this is based on the fact that a person must be persuaded to believe because of their free will. God will not force anyone to believe, but God is holding out His hand waiting for a person to decide and "accept Christ".
There is alot more to this and I'm sure others will add there thoughts, but this should give you a good feel for their position. [/quote:8119308405]
If someone were to say that man is good only in the sense of having a good reputation in the eyes of man, but man has no goodness in the eyes of God, would he be an Arminian?
[Edited on 4-10-2004 by cih1355]
A short hand working definition of modern Arminianism is: Man chooses God out of his own free will. The opposite is also true that man can reject God out of his own free will.
In the modern Arminian scheme, man is not totally depraved, there is a spark of good in all men. Grace is not irresistible, man of out of his own free will can accept or reject it, but God knows who will and won't reject the Gospel message as He looks down the corridor of time to see how someone responds but it is not predetermined who will respond. Salvation is possible for all mankind not just for a preselect group. And perserverance is based on mans ability to keep the faith.
Some of the things you hear in Arminian Evangelism are, "Have you found Christ? ", "Have you made a decision for Christ? ". All of this is based on the fact that a person must be persuaded to believe because of their free will. God will not force anyone to believe, but God is holding out His hand waiting for a person to decide and "accept Christ".
There is alot more to this and I'm sure others will add there thoughts, but this should give you a good feel for their position. [/quote:8119308405]
If someone were to say that man is good only in the sense of having a good reputation in the eyes of man, but man has no goodness in the eyes of God, would he be an Arminian?
[Edited on 4-10-2004 by cih1355]
Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
So Arminian is totally free will where Calvin is totally predestination?
Is there a middle ground between the two views?
Is Arminian once saved always saved?
Is there a middle ground between the two views?
Is Arminian once saved always saved?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
[quote:0dd3985fed][i:0dd3985fed]Originally posted by Doodle Bug[/i:0dd3985fed]
So Arminian is totally free will where Calvin is totally predestination?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
No, Arminianism is not biblical and was discounted by Dordt as HERESY. Jesus Himself said:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[quote:0dd3985fed]Is there a middle ground between the two views?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
You tell me:
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
The words "elect", "election", "elected' are excluding. Ask any politician. President Bush did not "elect" himself. Not all candidates are elected to office.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[quote:0dd3985fed]Is Arminian once saved always saved?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
Since the basis for [i:0dd3985fed]true[/i:0dd3985fed] Arminianism is centered on men and what they accomplish on their own behalf, the theology is flawed to the point that they are continuously losing their salvation based upon thier sin. The salvation is a works based salvation, a salvation that an omnipotent God cannot even hold His people upon.
[Edited on 4-10-2004 by Scott Bushey]
So Arminian is totally free will where Calvin is totally predestination?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
No, Arminianism is not biblical and was discounted by Dordt as HERESY. Jesus Himself said:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[quote:0dd3985fed]Is there a middle ground between the two views?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
You tell me:
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
The words "elect", "election", "elected' are excluding. Ask any politician. President Bush did not "elect" himself. Not all candidates are elected to office.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[quote:0dd3985fed]Is Arminian once saved always saved?[/quote:0dd3985fed]
Since the basis for [i:0dd3985fed]true[/i:0dd3985fed] Arminianism is centered on men and what they accomplish on their own behalf, the theology is flawed to the point that they are continuously losing their salvation based upon thier sin. The salvation is a works based salvation, a salvation that an omnipotent God cannot even hold His people upon.
[Edited on 4-10-2004 by Scott Bushey]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
[quote:6ec5953819][i:6ec5953819]Originally posted by joshua[/i:6ec5953819]
Yet, there are inconsistent Arminians. Take most Baptists for example. There's a strong belief for "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security", but their belief is on a faulty foundations. [/quote:6ec5953819]
Josh,
That is why I've said that there really are no Arminians today; at least in the technical or historical sense. There are people today who are taught poor theology and in that some of the poor theolgy is peppered w/ Arminianism and semi-Pelagian error.
Yet, there are inconsistent Arminians. Take most Baptists for example. There's a strong belief for "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security", but their belief is on a faulty foundations. [/quote:6ec5953819]
Josh,
That is why I've said that there really are no Arminians today; at least in the technical or historical sense. There are people today who are taught poor theology and in that some of the poor theolgy is peppered w/ Arminianism and semi-Pelagian error.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Sorry Josh,
I thought the comment was directed at me......my mistake. I have been posting alot lately. I hope it is not just a bunch of stuff and has some meat attached.
I thought the comment was directed at me......my mistake. I have been posting alot lately. I hope it is not just a bunch of stuff and has some meat attached.
Rebekah,
This little chart is probably the easiest way to see the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism:
http://www.solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/comparison.htm
There is also a very good explanation here:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/arminianism.html
In very short form, Arminianism (at least as it began with Jacob Arminianus - the latin for James Harmon - in the late 1500s/early 1600s) was not that different from Calvinism EXCEPT that Arminians proposed that God had done a work of grace in the hearts of ALL men (prevenient grace) that "sort of" regenerated everyone. Thus everyone was made "able" to choose Christ, without exception. Anyone who did or did not, did so in his own power, since God had already done "His part."
What that means then, is that the issue really comes down to depravity, and goes back to the battle Augustine fought with Pelagius in the early days of the Church:
[b:001f35b87b]Augustinism (Calvinism)[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is totally depraved and dead in his sins. This is the result of the sin of Adam (original sin) which is counted to the sinner as if he had sinned in Adam himself. (Adam is the head and representative of all mankind) He is unable to do any good, or choose God without an intervening supernatural act of God (regeneration). This act [i:001f35b87b][b:001f35b87b]precedes[/b:001f35b87b][/i:001f35b87b] faith and justificiation, since man cannot exercise faith in himself. Faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9) .
[b:001f35b87b]Pelagianism[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is not depraved at all. He is a "blank slate," with each man having perfect freedom to sin or not sin, to do evil or not. Adam's sin is only an [b:001f35b87b]example[/b:001f35b87b] that man can choose to follow, or he ould follow the example of Jesus. No supernatural work of God is needed to save man, he simply follows the example of Jesus in his own power. This is the de facto view of liberalism.
[b:001f35b87b]Semi-Pelagianism[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is depraved, as in Augustinism, but God has already done a supernatural work in all men to remove the effects of that depravity. Salvation now totally depends on man, and the choice that he makes. God has put man into the position described by Pelagianism, but it took a work of God to get him there, and he is either more or less likely to sin (depending on how "Pelagian" the semi-Pelagian is, and how "un-Pelagian" the semi-Pelagian is.
A really good book to read on this (and other positions) is Warfield's [b:001f35b87b]Plan of Salvation[/b:001f35b87b]
I hope that helps.
This little chart is probably the easiest way to see the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism:
http://www.solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/comparison.htm
There is also a very good explanation here:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/arminianism.html
In very short form, Arminianism (at least as it began with Jacob Arminianus - the latin for James Harmon - in the late 1500s/early 1600s) was not that different from Calvinism EXCEPT that Arminians proposed that God had done a work of grace in the hearts of ALL men (prevenient grace) that "sort of" regenerated everyone. Thus everyone was made "able" to choose Christ, without exception. Anyone who did or did not, did so in his own power, since God had already done "His part."
What that means then, is that the issue really comes down to depravity, and goes back to the battle Augustine fought with Pelagius in the early days of the Church:
[b:001f35b87b]Augustinism (Calvinism)[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is totally depraved and dead in his sins. This is the result of the sin of Adam (original sin) which is counted to the sinner as if he had sinned in Adam himself. (Adam is the head and representative of all mankind) He is unable to do any good, or choose God without an intervening supernatural act of God (regeneration). This act [i:001f35b87b][b:001f35b87b]precedes[/b:001f35b87b][/i:001f35b87b] faith and justificiation, since man cannot exercise faith in himself. Faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9) .
[b:001f35b87b]Pelagianism[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is not depraved at all. He is a "blank slate," with each man having perfect freedom to sin or not sin, to do evil or not. Adam's sin is only an [b:001f35b87b]example[/b:001f35b87b] that man can choose to follow, or he ould follow the example of Jesus. No supernatural work of God is needed to save man, he simply follows the example of Jesus in his own power. This is the de facto view of liberalism.
[b:001f35b87b]Semi-Pelagianism[/b:001f35b87b]: Man is depraved, as in Augustinism, but God has already done a supernatural work in all men to remove the effects of that depravity. Salvation now totally depends on man, and the choice that he makes. God has put man into the position described by Pelagianism, but it took a work of God to get him there, and he is either more or less likely to sin (depending on how "Pelagian" the semi-Pelagian is, and how "un-Pelagian" the semi-Pelagian is.
A really good book to read on this (and other positions) is Warfield's [b:001f35b87b]Plan of Salvation[/b:001f35b87b]
I hope that helps.
Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall?
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall?
Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:e1f97acc82][i:e1f97acc82]Originally posted by joshua[/i:e1f97acc82]
No, sir. Not directed at anyone. Just wanted to post my :wr50:. I'd probably get change back, but that's ok. Usually if I'm directing a post to someone, I'll quote them. Your posts most always have meat attached. I'm just a "talkative" person and like to comment... [/quote:e1f97acc82]
Sooo are you saying you are a post addict?
No, sir. Not directed at anyone. Just wanted to post my :wr50:. I'd probably get change back, but that's ok. Usually if I'm directing a post to someone, I'll quote them. Your posts most always have meat attached. I'm just a "talkative" person and like to comment... [/quote:e1f97acc82]
Sooo are you saying you are a post addict?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
[quote:c247525d91][i:c247525d91]Originally posted by Doodle Bug[/i:c247525d91]
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:c247525d91]
Rebekah,
How did you come away from those links thinking that "all" Baptists are Arminian?
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:c247525d91]
Rebekah,
How did you come away from those links thinking that "all" Baptists are Arminian?
[quote:b77f4cfb60][i:b77f4cfb60]Originally posted by Doodle Bug[/i:b77f4cfb60]
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:b77f4cfb60]
This is not the case. There are Calvinistic Baptists and practical Arminian Presbyterians.
You need to get past denominations to theology in today's crazy world.
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:b77f4cfb60]
This is not the case. There are Calvinistic Baptists and practical Arminian Presbyterians.
You need to get past denominations to theology in today's crazy world.
Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:4d17ee846b][i:4d17ee846b]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:4d17ee846b]
Rebekah,
How did you come away from those links thinking that "all" Baptists are Arminian? [/quote:4d17ee846b]
I didn't, I was asking if that was true, but from your reaction I'm guessing not. I wasn't rasing in a denomination so the whole system is rather forgien to me. I was intending to offend, just learn.
Rebekah,
How did you come away from those links thinking that "all" Baptists are Arminian? [/quote:4d17ee846b]
I didn't, I was asking if that was true, but from your reaction I'm guessing not. I wasn't rasing in a denomination so the whole system is rather forgien to me. I was intending to offend, just learn.
Doodle Bug
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:2585eb8dd4][i:2585eb8dd4]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:2585eb8dd4]
[quote:2585eb8dd4][i:2585eb8dd4]Originally posted by Doodle Bug[/i:2585eb8dd4]
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:2585eb8dd4]
This is not the case. There are Calvinistic Baptists and practical Arminian Presbyterians.
You need to get past denominations to theology in today's crazy world. [/quote:2585eb8dd4]
I beging to get that
[quote:2585eb8dd4][i:2585eb8dd4]Originally posted by Doodle Bug[/i:2585eb8dd4]
Thanks guys, I'm starting to get it. That chart was really helpful Fred.
So Baptist are Arminian and Presbytrian are Calvanist?
So then are all Baptists heretical?
Then that means they aren't saved?
Where do other denominations fall? [/quote:2585eb8dd4]
This is not the case. There are Calvinistic Baptists and practical Arminian Presbyterians.
You need to get past denominations to theology in today's crazy world. [/quote:2585eb8dd4]
I beging to get that
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
no problem Rebekah. I was just wondering if soemthing you read lended to the statement you made.
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
[quote:b57cd62236][i:b57cd62236]Originally posted by SolaScriptura[/i:b57cd62236]
Arminianism = Fallen Man Syndrome. [/quote:b57cd62236]
"I'm fallen and I *CAN* get up."
Arminianism = Fallen Man Syndrome. [/quote:b57cd62236]
"I'm fallen and I *CAN* get up."
Tom, Welcome.
I believe we "know" each other from the Warfield List!
I believe we "know" each other from the Warfield List!
A_Wild_Boar
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:19e3cf8b3c][i:19e3cf8b3c]Originally posted by Galahad[/i:19e3cf8b3c]
Wild Boar,
I liked what Spurgeon said, but you could direct me to where he said it?
Thanks [/quote:19e3cf8b3c]
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm
Glory to God
Wild Boar,
I liked what Spurgeon said, but you could direct me to where he said it?
Thanks [/quote:19e3cf8b3c]
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm
Glory to God
- Status
