What is the fullness of the Gentiles?

[ReformedWretch]

My pastor and I agreed to study Roman 11 to discuss it when we next meet. As I study, this is the question that bothers me most. It seems to me that in most cases where it is stated that there must be a mass salvation of National Jews, it is based on emotionalism, or simply not wanting an anti-semitic charge thrown about.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that National Jews cannot be saved! I am just not sure that I see scriptural support for some mass, final conversion of National Jews especially from the land int he middle East.

I am leaning toward believing that "the fullness of the gentiles" was when Paul's ministry was complete. When salvation was offered to men of all Nations.

I also don't see us making National Jews jelous. I think this may have been speaking of Pauls day and the short future left before the destruction of the Temple and the City.

I am open for other opinion, but I am pretty deep in this study. It's just that, in my opinion, the claim that this passage must be in regard to some mass future conversion of National Jews as having little support.

Any thoughts?

 

[bond-servant]

Some people believe "fullness of the Gentiles" is when the predestined number of Gentiles come to faith - all those who God has appointed

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is (has been) filled
1a) a ship inasmuch as it is filled (i.e. manned) with sailors, rowers, and soldiers
1b) in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ
2) that which fills or with which a thing is filled
2a) of those things which a ship is filled, freight and merchandise, sailors, oarsmen, soldiers
2b) completeness or fulness of time
3) fulness, abundance
4) a fulfilling, keeping
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4137
Citing in TDNT: 6:298, 867

The fullness of the Gentiles must be taken in context with the next verse - the end of the sentence "Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Rom 11:26 And in this way **all Israel will be saved,** "

All Israel is speaking of spiritual Israel, the Jewish believers in Christ AND all the Gentile believers make up the true Israel, the Israel of promise.

 

[LadyFlynt]

That is what I have been taught as well

 

[ReformedWretch]

What about fullness in these passages?

Rom 11:12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

John 1:16And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

Col 1:19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell

Rom 15:29I know that when I come to you I will come in the fullness of the blessing of Christ.

Eph 1:22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Does this not mean the fullness of the covenantal inheritance in Christ which came to the gentiles when they were included as co-heirs in the blessing of Abraham and his seed, Jesus?

 

[Puritanhead]

Various Considerations about Romans 11

As for a mass end times conversion of Jews, this is something I've wrestled with... even amillennialists like Kim Riddlebarger see prophetic significance to the gathering of Jews in the Middle East in that little parcel of land we call Palestine. I'm really unsure and undecided on the issue, but tend to think we shouldn't make such distinctions within the body of Christ whatsoever (Gal. 2:6-7; Gal. 3:28-29). Many families of Jewish lineage throughout Western history that came to faith in Christ Jesus had a propensity for losing their Jewish identity... so today, too often the idea that Jews by and large are not of faith has taken hold... and salvation is sometimes seen as being manifest to the Gentiles completely at the expense of the Jews....

The Apostle Paul's blunt inquiry and answer about God not casting away his first people away should put to rest notions about God discarding his first people from redemption altogether (Rom. 11:1-2). The appellation of "replacement theology" that dispensationalists ascribe to covenant theology is blatantly dishonest straw man. As the Apostle surmises, "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5). The scattering of the Jews by the Romans after the temple was sacked in 70 A.D. marked the end of the national community of the Jews. The prophets who never reached the so called Promised land ultimately saw even in their time--- that their promised land was not of this world, but afar off.

I don't approach my exegesis with any dispensationalist presuppositions about two programs of redemption, but realize the profound unity of the body of Christ, as articulated in Galatians 3.

With regards to Romans 11:11-12....

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Romans 11:11-12 KJV

I think the Apostle Paul is wringing out emphasis that all those God calls amongst the Jews will all the more manifest the fullness of his redemption.... bear in mind he spoke of a "remnant according to election," a remnant of Jews according to God's choosing.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Rom. 11:13-15 KJV

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Rom. 11:13-15 NKJV

It was in part, Jewish jealously that those heathen Gentiles would even hear the Word that compelled Jonah to run from proclaiming the Gospel to the Gentiles. In the end, jealously at least for those called to redemption amongst the Jews turns to humility commensurate with the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

The fulness of God's redemption is found in the body of Christ-- amongst Jew and Gentile, male and female, freedman and bondservant alike



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=9

[Edited on 2-19-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[Robin]

Hey Adam,

Ryan has some excellent points - go Ryan!

The answer is not either/or but BOTH AND. There is a double fulfillment going on.... I don't know about "mass, national Israel" but as Paul says, a "remnant".

There is double-fulfillment in prophecy everwhere. (I can hear the gasps, now.)

Calm down - though, and think a minute....there are "double fulfillments" everywhere in Scripture: Christ's first and second advents-both predicted in the OT; concepts of the Beast and Antichrist fulfilled in OT and NT times as well as throughout our history timeline.

The passages referring to "fulness" of Christ are eschatalogical.

Ever heard of this? (I can prove it with Scripture, btw.)

Unless we get on-board with the eschatalogical language and style of Scripture - there will always be confusion.

Cheers,

Robin

[Edited on 2-19-2005 by Robin]

 

[ReformedWretch]

Ok, while all the info provided has been intresting can I just ask a blunt question?

Do you believe that scriptures demand that the Jews must be "saved" from within National Israel?

 

[Preach]

Adam,
I am a pre AD. 70 guy as of recently. I know you are a partial preterist too. So I am sympathetic with your new understanding of the focus on the complex of events we know as AD. 70.

With that in mind, many people have highly recommended John Murray's commentary on Romans regarding the Jews and chapter 11. I have the commentary, and from what I remember, he seemed to be right on the money.

I recently read Bahnsen (either an article from monergism or cmfnow). He agreed with Murray.

What they say in a nutshell is this: The Jews have no unique place as the people of God anymore. Their significance as a geo political national entity is forever gone (hence D. 70). However, in the context of Romans 11, Paul seems to be speaking of ethnic Jews (not national geo political Israel in Palestine). So, it seems that God will do something with ethnic Jews.

BTW, I know you have read/are reading "He Shall Have Dominion". I was curious where you learned your eschatology/book of Revelation studies. I listened to Gentry's 22 cassette overview on the book of Revelation, and his tapes on postmill. I also have been reading the different millennial perspectives from Monergism

I hope that helps. It seems Bahnsen, Murray, and Gentry all hold to the position that I have set foerth above. The context of Romans 11 seems to be quite strong that the ethnic Jews are being referred to, though Calvin did not take that position.

"In Christ",
Bobby

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Why would Paul change the meaning of the word "Israel" used througout all of Romans 9-11 (ethnic Israel) in 11:26?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by houseparent
Ok, while all the info provided has been intresting can I just ask a blunt question?

Do you believe that scriptures demand that the Jews must be "saved" from within National Israel?

If by "National Israel" you mean it will be Jews in the state of Israel as we know it today, I see no reason to believe that. I do, however, see reason to believe in a mass conversion and repentance of ethnic Jews, dispersed throughout the world, prior to the return of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom on the New Earth. I believe in the prevalence of the gospel of Jesus over the kingdom of Satan in this world prior to His return. As the Psalmist says:

The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

This leads me to believe firmly that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL all of his enemies have become a footstool beneath His feet.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by houseparent
Ok, while all the info provided has been intresting can I just ask a blunt question?

Do you believe that scriptures demand that the Jews must be "saved" from within National Israel?

If by "National Israel" you mean it will be Jews in the state of Israel as we know it today, I see no reason to believe that. I do, however, see reason to believe in a mass conversion and repentance of ethnic Jews, dispersed throughout the world, prior to the return of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom on the New Earth. I believe in the prevalence of the gospel of Jesus over the kingdom of Satan in this world prior to His return. As the Psalmist says:

The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

This leads me to believe firmly that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL all of his enemies have become a footstool beneath His feet.

I can see that! But then again I see a "mass conversion" of all people's before Christ returns. Do you believe a mass conversion of ethnic Jews will be one of the "final signs" of Christ's soon return?

And Bobby, a very good book on Revelation (recomended by Gary DeMar) is "Back to the future" by Ralph E. Bass Jr.

[Edited on 2-19-2005 by houseparent]

 

[turmeric]

I've heard that there would be a mass-conversion of Jews, followed by a mass-conversion of everyone else!

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Yes, I think the en masse conversion of ethnic Jews, in their repentance and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Messiah, will be a sign of Christ's imminent physical return to earth, where His kingdom will be well in place. I see a constant progression of more and more Christian influence in the world in all areas of life (government, morality, etc.), and the breaking down of denominational walls as well. Maybe I'm just optimistic?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Nah, I believe that too! I am just having a hard time placing this Jewish conversion in the proper place and the matter of it's importance.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by houseparent
Nah, I believe that too! I am just having a hard time placing this Jewish conversion in the proper place and the matter of it's importance.

I think its importance is made clear in Romans 9-11, personally.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I find Jeremiah 31-32 to be highly eschatological in nature as well ... it's definitely worth a look in this discussion. Ezekiel 36-37, too.

 

[andreas]

***I've heard that there would be a mass-conversion of Jews, followed by a mass-conversion of everyone else!***

There is no biblical support for this. If everyone is saved,then what is judgment day for?If everyone is saved, who is going to be judged on judgment day?

andreas.

 

[TimV]

I'm not even sure that Christ's return is a singular event. Perhaps it just means when a believer dies? But in any event, looking backwards from the NT it's easy to see how predictions of Christ and the Church in the OT came about as predicted. But looking from the OT to the NT how many people could have guessed anything more than a small amount of what actually happened? Even godly men like Nathanuel were caught totally off guard.

Tim LaHayes great great great grandkid may look back with ebarrassment!

But still, it's fair to see a gradual Christianization of the planet, and that goes for both Greeks and Jews. I'm still not sure that Jews have a unique role to play any more.

 

[street preacher]

I don't believe that everone will be saved. I'm not sure where or how the conversion of the jews have on eschatology.

 

[bond-servant]

Originally posted by houseparent
What about fullness in these passages?

Rom 11:12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

John 1:16And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

Col 1:19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell

Rom 15:29I know that when I come to you I will come in the fullness of the blessing of Christ.

Eph 1:22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Does this not mean the fullness of the covenantal inheritance in Christ which came to the gentiles when they were included as co-heirs in the blessing of Abraham and his seed, Jesus?

'fullness' or 'full' having the sense of completeness - fufilling all of what God ordained, predetermined, predestined, foreknew.

As to the discussion of Israel the whole nation being saved - as a physical body exisiting of the people dwelling on the land, I don't see any Biblical support for it. I've wrestled over these passages a lot over the years, just as I wrestled with wanting to believe in a 'pretrib rapture' when I was being taught that. I could not find Biblical support for either.

Good thoughts Adam

 

[ReformedWretch]

Thanks all!

I will keep you updated as I continue to study it and after I meet with my pastor about it.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by houseparent
Ok, while all the info provided has been intresting can I just ask a blunt question?

Do you believe that scriptures demand that the Jews must be "saved" from within National Israel?

I think Jews will be saved from amongst national Israel. There is a remnant according to election... i don't know what more i can say... if someone dredges up Old Testament passages to substantiate the end times gathering of Jews than I'm all ears. Anybody else?

[Edited on 2-21-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by bond-servant
All Israel is speaking of spiritual Israel, the Jewish believers in Christ AND all the Gentile believers make up the true Israel, the Israel of promise.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I thought the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation was the remnant that was saved. John specifically gives them the Jewish character of them being of the 12 tribes of Israel that were sealed, who had not defiled themselves i.e following apostate Judaism of the Pharisees. If we are in the millennium the only prophecy that is left to be fulfilled is the final judgment and the advent of the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Adam, I think (in light of your dispensational background and the fact that a national restoration of Israel being one of the major emphaseseseses of dispensationalism) that your newfound preterism wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater. as someone else mentioned earlier, even Kim Riddlebarger sees some sort of national repentance for Israel in the future. I believe (simply) that Paul's consistent use of 'Israel' in Romans 9-11 is in reference to ethnic/national Israel. A partial hardening (because there is still a remnant of ethnic/national Israel saved by grace) has been placed over the entire nation as judgment for the rejection of their Messiah AND for salvation to come to the gentiles.

Ultimately, much of what one determines to be 'right' as far as hermeneutics go will be determined on the presuppositions of what we feel 'ought' to be when we approach the text of Romans 11:25-26. Some believe that ethnic/national Israel has replaced 'the church' in all areas and aspects of the promise of God, so 'all Israel' in 11:26 'ought' to mean Jews and Gentiles. Some believe that the grammatical use of 'Israel' throughout the context of 9-11 refers to Paul's 'kinsmen according to the flesh' and that his anguish is for them (not Jews AND Gentiles) in chapter 9, therefore (logically), the whole 'reading of the OT and veil remaining' in chapter 10 and 'partial hardening' in chapter 11 also refer to the same group - ethnic/national Israel! (you can tell which view I espouse)

Which presupposition are you holding to regarding the text ?

The real question is: does such a conversion necessarily entail a restoration of the Jews to Palestine as a nation, or will there simply be a mass conversion of Jews worldwide, regardless of location ?

 

[TimV]

Keon, there must be some symbolism in that 12 from each tribe passage, because Dan is left out, and one of Joseph's sons took it's place.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I can't believe I agree with you, Kerry.

Someone asked for other references to a future restoration of ethnic Israel.

Ezekiel 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

33 “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. 35 And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.

37 “Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. 38 Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

Ezekiel 37:20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land  and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Jeremiah 31:38 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when the city shall be rebuilt for the Lord from the tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 And the measuring line shall go out farther, straight to the hill Gareb, and shall then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be sacred to the Lord. It shall not be uprooted or overthrown anymore forever.”

Jeremiah 32:36 “Now therefore thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city of which you say, ‘It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine, and by pestilence’: 37 Behold, I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and in great indignation. I will bring them back to this place, and I will make them dwell in safety. 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

42 “For thus says the Lord: Just as I have brought all this great disaster upon this people, so I will bring upon them all the good that I promise them. 43 Fields shall be bought in this land of which you are saying, ‘It is a desolation, without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.’ 44 Fields shall be bought for money, and deeds shall be signed and sealed and witnessed, in the land of Benjamin, in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the hill country, in the cities of the Shephelah, and in the cities of the Negeb; for I will restore their fortunes, declares the Lord.”

 

[bond-servant]

Originally posted by Slippery
I thought the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation was the remnant that was saved. John specifically gives them the Jewish character of them being of the 12 tribes of Israel that were sealed, who had not defiled themselves i.e following apostate Judaism of the Pharisees. If we are in the millennium the only prophecy that is left to be fulfilled is the final judgment and the advent of the New Heaven and New Earth.

Yes, but that is not *all* the Jews that will be saved. There have been Jewish believers in all generations since the original apostles themselves.

 

[ReformedWretch]

I lean towards taking the passage Preteristically. The remenant could be talking of a time before AD70. I am willing to see this as incorrect, and thus the reason I am still studying it.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by OS_X
The real question is: does such a conversion necessarily entail a restoration of the Jews to Palestine as a nation, or will there simply be a mass conversion of Jews worldwide, regardless of location ?

That is hitting the nail on the head... though I am not decisive in what Scriptures say on the matter if anything.