What is the "sin unto death" - and why shouldn't we pray for it?

[Contra_Mundum]

I would like to say, I preached 1Jn.5:14-17 on Sunday.

After preaching through the book (almost all the way now) I say that my position changed.

I think that John is emphasizing that we SHOULD pray for our brothers, when we see them sinning. In the context, there can be a natural question regarding those who have left the faith; they were brothers, but now no more, and probably under discipline.

But more (we don't just give up praying for those under even the most extreme discipline), these have taken up the cause of anti-Christ (another/alternate-Christ), and seek to draw other members after them in their apostasy. They have gone back to, or are nearly confirmed in, "death" (1Jn.3:14).

This, is now seems to me, is the most natural understanding of this passage. Although, as I argued above, it is a truth that natural death is a point beyond which prayers for anyone's improvement is either superfluous or worthless.

So, this is indeed a "warning verse," but in a way secondary to the main point--which (like the rest of the book) is primarily a positive encouragement to professing Christians.

 

[Houston E.]

I would like to say, I preached 1Jn.5:14-17 on Sunday.

After preaching through the book (almost all the way now) I say that my position changed.

I think that John is emphasizing that we SHOULD pray for our brothers, when we see them sinning. In the context, there can be a natural question regarding those who have left the faith; they were brothers, but now no more, and probably under discipline.

But more (we don't just give up praying for those under even the most extreme discipline), these have taken up the cause of anti-Christ (another/alternate-Christ), and seek to draw other members after them in their apostasy. They have gone back to, or are nearly confirmed in, "death" (1Jn.3:14).

This, is now seems to me, is the most natural understanding of this passage. Although, as I argued above, it is a truth that natural death is a point beyond which prayers for anyone's improvement is either superfluous or worthless.

So, this is indeed a "warning verse," but in a way secondary to the main point--which (like the rest of the book) is primarily a positive encouragement to professing Christians.

Hi Bruce,

Some friends and I were discussing this passage a few weeks ago. Their view really concerned me as they stated that there have been times when the Spirit had led them not to pray for someone. I questioned this thinking as in my mind it seems they are determining who is elect and who is not. I then read your initial post at that time and was in agreement. Am I reading you correctly in saying that you now see it as a warning passage, but not to the extent of where we have no need to pray for someone unless they have died?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Trey,
A part of me really does like the simplicity of the "natural-death" argument. I mentioned it in my sermon, as one alternative with a plausible defense.

However, given the "life-death" contrast present not only in the immediate context but through the whole letter, I had to forgo it because the "spiritual death" would indeed be a more plausible question raised, in my opinion. Dying-in-fact (bodily) just doesn't seem to come up, other than by extension. So, by extension I think that the natural-death point is proved, but it is not John's patent purpose to speak to it.

In regard to those persons who think HolyGhost "led them" not to pray for someone: I have a problem with people bypassing their own God-given minds and reasoning in order to sanctify a decision the came to. Their decision is either informed by Scripture-trained thinking, and therefore in conformity to the mind of Christ and his Spirit, or it isn't. And they will have to wait until judgment Day for confirmation of that.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to justify to Christ my (previous) ascription of my sinful idea to a "prompting" from the Spirit.

In fact, THAT (!) comes awfully close to the sin of blaspheming the Spirit. Talk about irony.




So, much better to 1) pray for as many brothers (sinners) as come to mind; 2) pray for as many brothers who have even sinned so far as being under discipline; and 3) pray for those who were once brothers and are slipping now into a false religion. We were just recently informed on this board about a former brother (and wife) who were on the PB, who have joined the RCs. I think they need our unfailing prayers because they are now members in a works-righteousness organization.

Just read Gal.1 for how dangerous Paul thinks that situation is.

Clearly, Paul prays for those who are "abandoning" the gospel. And he just as clearly has a curse for those who are taking them there.

I think we are encouraged to pray generally for all the lost, that God would be gracious to them, and give them a knowledge of the truth. He still saves false teachers too, snatching them out of eternal fire like brands from the burning. But, I get the sense from both Paul and John, Peter and Jude, etc. that in our discernment when we know a person who is seeking to draw-off our other brethren from the gospel themselves once professed, and now despise, we actually need to pray that God will intervene to save the ones who are not yet engulfed.

So we leave the results to God--whether to reach deeper into the flames to pull out the one-pulling-in others; or if he will simply bring down the axe on the tentacles that are dragging our still-brothers after the damned. Our focus-for-well-being is on those who are brothers, now, and in danger; not those who have (more than likely) sinned unto death. So, the answer to when or how we pray regarding those who are plucking the "stragglers" (as did the Amalekites) is, John says: "focus on the brothers being plucked." Perhaps, this is one of the few times to pray the Imprecatory Psalms? We still like to see such persons saved, but...

See, the point of these verses is to encourage us that praying for the brother-in-sin is one of those prayers that is designed to BE an encouragement to prayer, because it is VERY likely to be answered in grace. In ch3, we are encouraged to pray BECAUSE we are assured by God of his love. in ch5, we are encouraged to pray (vv14-15) as a means of assurance (in order TO BE assured). And that general call to prayer-as-assurance is followed then by a specific prayer that we have so much expectation will be a means of assurance, as God answers in grace (with due respect for God's sovereignty). The more we pray this prayer for our brothers, the more we will see that prayer answered. It is BOUND to be an assuring factor.

So, the passage does "warn" us further that there is a serious danger of apostasy (which is spelled out earlier and clearer in ch2): danger of us falling in, danger of staying in and becoming a recruiter, danger to the rest from the apostates. But, the last thing he says v17 is back to "but there is a sin NOT to death," don't forget that!

 

[Houston E.]

Bruce,
Ok, I'm with you to an extent, but my difficulty is that John is being specific- "ask" for this, "don't ask" for that.This is all preceded by are confidence to ask because we are in Christ. I get what you are saying about focus, but focus is one thing, pronouncing someone is reprobate is another.

"when we know a person who is seeking to draw-off our other brethren from the gospel themselves once professed, and now despise, we actually need to pray that God will intervene to save the ones who are not yet engulfed"

Again, intervene is different than "not pray".The mention of sin is obvious, but I'm not sure we can conclude that he is specifically referring to someone reprobate.

I'm more inclined to see it as John saying because you are in Christ, ask and you will be heard. If you see a brother sinning, pray for him. But if one has sinned and result was death, no need to pray.
I will keep pondering though...

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Trey,
I don't think John is (or would have us) pronounce anyone reprobate. I think the issue is simply this:

There will be times when praying for one person (the brother) means not-praying for another person (the person who is trying to drag him off to hell). I think John is saying little more than that we owe our "brother" the prayer. And we don't "owe" the apostate the same courtesy. We want God to save our brother, even if it means that God destroys the corrupter. "I don't say he should pray about that," meaning that because we believe God is promising to hear the prayer for our brother in grace, we don't pray for the same result for the other person (who I think is clearly beyond the definition of "brother" now). The context is pointing to a certain prayer that we should be expecting God to answer in grace. Whatever he does to the other person, we are not praying with the same expectation.

Anyway, I recommend preaching the whole letter sometime. You may still have a different conclusion from me at the end, but the study changed my mind on how certain thoughts in the final verses were formed.

Blessings,

 

[Houston E.]

Thanks Bruce, will do. And btw, my "thanks" comes with a hint of sarcasm as now I am forced to dive into this further to settle my mind. I realize it's not a major issue, but here I was in my happy little world, overjoyed that the "CONTRA MUNDUM" and I agreed on something, only to be turned upside down! DRATS!!