What is theologically moderate?

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arapahoepark

Puritan Board Doctor
Roger Olson recently wrote a book against liberal theology and while I have not read it, I did read an article of his here. A review of it is here
So what would it mean to be theologically moderate or "not conservative?" Is that person a Christian? Is it 'progressive' as the book review seems to state. Is hard to wrap my mind around the apparent large gray area between "conservative" and "liberal" since it merely seems to be a slippery slope in action.
 
Roger Olson recently wrote a book against liberal theology and while I have not read it, I did read an article of his here. A review of it is here
So what would it mean to be theologically moderate or "not conservative?" Is that person a Christian? Is it 'progressive' as the book review seems to state. Is hard to wrap my mind around the apparent large gray area between "conservative" and "liberal" since it merely seems to be a slippery slope in action.

Theological moderate usually entails:
1) Belief in conciliar creeds.
2) Rejection of plenary inspiration.
3) Govt redistribution of wealth
 
Dr. Olson is from a Pentecostal background. While he has changed his views on some of that and left pentecostalism decades ago, he maintains appreciation for his upbringing. I think that may help moderate him in the sense that it may help keep him from going hard left. Every once in a while he'll even post a lament about how things used to be and how loose or irreverant things are now.

He doesn't affirm LGBT+++ because it would contradict the "Great Tradition." Otherwise I'm not sure if he has or can make much of a case against it.

He is strongly egalitarian. (I don't know if there is a "moderate" who isn't egal, but there are a handful of egals like Groothuis who can't be said to be a "moderate" otherwise.)

I don't think he's an Open Theist, but he doesn't think evangelicals should necessarily break fellowship with them. Due to this stance my understanding is that some assume that he is himself an Open Theist.

In general, "moderate" is sometimes what liberal academics call themselves when trying to hide the extent of their liberalism in denominations like the SBC. A lot of the ones who had to leave Southern Baptist seminaries in the 80s and 90s ended up taking the mask off and becoming openly liberal almost immediately once freed from having to pretend that they were in some semblance of conformity to something like the Abstract of Principles or Baptist Faith and Message.
 
Steve Hayes use to spar with Olson back in the day. It may be worth rummaging triablogue.
 
In church history, it seems the moderates that arose in faithful congregations /denominations were those that in the name of charity tried to soften some hard lines under the pretext of allowing more people to benefit from sound doctrine, etc. They didn’t/don’t deny most of the doctrinal distinctives, but just didn’t/don’t require strict subscription. But tolerating moderates always has turned out to a case of the little foxes spoiling the vine and the denomination or congregation has ended up going down the road of unbelief.
 
This is ironic. Unless Olson has changed, I would call him a liberal. He hates God's free grace, rails against his sovereignty, and has gone on record saying that if Calvinism is true, then God is not worthy of his worship.

Maybe "liberal" is too charitable. I wonder if the man is a Christian at all.
 
This is ironic. Unless Olson has changed, I would call him a liberal. He hates God's free grace, rails against his sovereignty, and has gone on record saying that if Calvinism is true, then God is not worthy of his worship.

Maybe "liberal" is too charitable. I wonder if the man is a Christian at all.
In this context, the point is that he is not an adherent of classic liberal theology a la Schliermacher. As far as I know, he actually believes what is taught in the Apostle's Creed. That doesn't make one a Christian, of course. (For what it's worth, I've wondered if some "Calvinists" are Christians at all.)
 
In this context, the point is that he is not an adherent of classic liberal theology a la Schliermacher. As far as I know, he actually believes what is taught in the Apostle's Creed. That doesn't make one a Christian, of course. (For what it's worth, I've wondered if some "Calvinists" are Christians at all.)
Sure, I understand that, even as I wrote what I wrote. And I agree, he perhaps is not a liberal in the technical sense. Even so, I personally consider him quite liberal in the sense that he simply doesn't believe the Bible and has made a god for himself that suits his own standards.
 
(For what it's worth, I've wondered if some "Calvinists" are Christians at all.)

I get it. I think there is a lack of humility that is a factor here.

Olson wrote that if he faced God and God was the God of "full TULIP Calvinism", he would not worship Him.

I know other cage-stage Calvinists out of college who would say the same enthusiastic sentiment but in reverse and a refusal to kneel to a God who reveals Arminius was right.

I think both raise red flags as to a lack of love, patience, self-control that are fruits of the Spirit.
 
 
This is ironic. Unless Olson has changed, I would call him a liberal. He hates God's free grace, rails against his sovereignty, and has gone on record saying that if Calvinism is true, then God is not worthy of his worship.

Maybe "liberal" is too charitable. I wonder if the man is a Christian at all.
Olson's an interesting case. He has a large influence on the pastors coming out of Truett. His historical theology textbook is a gift to the church. I sat under some of his teaching at a baptist congregation in Texas (before I was reformed). Nothing was particularly off. Olson's disdain for the doctrine's of grace is an emotional, polemical response to the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement's effect on theological dialogue in evangelical circles. This quote from his blog lends some insight:

I think the Christian Reformed Church, the Presbyterian Church of America, etc., ought to be Calvinist. I don’t have any problem with their Calvinism except insofar as it is taken away from their confessional confines and touted among all evangelicals as the one and only biblical and evangelical theology. That has been happening and has come to be accepted as true by many evangelicals in circles with no particular Calvinist confessional heritage.
 
Olson's an interesting case. He has a strong influence on the pastors coming out of Truett. His historical theology textbook is a gift to the church. I sat under some of his teaching at a baptist congregation in Texas (before I was reformed). Nothing was particularly off. Olson's disdain for the doctrine's of grace is an emotional, polemical response to the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement's affect on theological dialogue in evangelical circles. This quote from his blog lends some insight:
That does helpfully frame the issue. Thank you.

I have no doubt he has written many helpful things. I just wish he hadn’t said what he said about his not worshipping God if he found out Calvinism is true, and then dug his heels in when criticized about it. Until he retracts it, I really have no choice but to write him off, possibly as an unbeliever. I just don’t have a conception of a true Christian saying such blasphemous things.
 
That does helpfully frame the issue. Thank you.

I have no doubt he has written many helpful things. I just wish he hadn’t said what he said about his not worshipping God if he found out Calvinism is true, and then dug his heels in when criticized about it. Until he retracts it, I really have no choice but to write him off, possibly as an unbeliever. I just don’t have a conception of a true Christian saying such blasphemous things.
For sure!

And I don't disagree with your assessment. Placing conditions upon God almighty... essentially telling God how He must be for you to worship Him is inherently blasphemous. I was just sharing personal insight :cheers2:
 
Olson's an interesting case. He has a large influence on the pastors coming out of Truett. His historical theology textbook is a gift to the church. I sat under some of his teaching at a baptist congregation in Texas (before I was reformed). Nothing was particularly off. Olson's disdain for the doctrine's of grace is an emotional, polemical response to the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement's effect on theological dialogue in evangelical circles. This quote from his blog lends some insight:
He has mentioned a negative encounter with James Montgomery Boice several times as well, along with disagreeing with the desire to kick Open Theists out of things like ETS, which I'm thinking was largely led by those who were Calvinistic with the exception of strongly inerrantist scholars like Geisler. So his beef with Calvinism predates the YRR coming on the scene, although maybe it only confirmed his hostility.
 
Thanks for sharing your article. I’ve heard the trope that classical Arminianism is a lot closer to reformed theology than more modern reactionary variants. Hopefully this will clear things up. I’ll read it tonight.
 
along with disagreeing with the desire to kick Open Theists out of things like ETS, which I'm thinking was largely led by those who were Calvinistic with the exception of strongly inerrantist scholars like Geisler. So his beef with Calvinism predates the YRR coming on the scene, although maybe it only confirmed his hostility.
Piper had already preached his seashells sermon (along with multiple Passion/OneDay conferences in the years prior) and had beef with Greg Boyd at the time of the ETS vote. It depends on how you define the YRR movement. The Mohler/Diana Garland (wife of eventual Truett NT professor Dr. David Garland) controversy might have added to Olson's distaste for conservatism and Calvinism as well. Ironically, his support of Open Theists validates the concerns of the Calvinist evangelicals he so strongly opposes.
 
Piper had already preached his seashells sermon (along with multiple Passion/OneDay conferences in the years prior) and had beef with Greg Boyd at the time of the ETS vote. It depends on how you define the YRR movement. The Mohler/Diana Garland (wife of eventual Truett NT professor Dr. David Garland) controversy might have added to Olson's distaste for conservatism and Calvinism as well. Ironically, his support of Open Theists validates the concerns of the Calvinist evangelicals he so strongly opposes.
Right. But I don't think YRR reached critical mass or peaked until later. And that was just one event among many. That was before YouTube, so not that many saw it at the time, compared to even something like the "Shocking Youth Message" later on. The first T4G was 2006. Back then Calvinistic people could expect a hostile reception most places in the SBC, for example. But Olson was dealing more with scholars and students, which tend to have a higher proportion of Calvinists than laity. I'm sure you're right about Garland, although I'm not totally sure that you can lay that at the doorstep of Calvinism specifically. Various non-Calvinists have opposed psychology and social work on seminary campuses as well. Olson complains that Calvinists are too "my way or the highway." But if he had his way, would there be any Calvinists in any denomination or school he was a part of?

A Wesleyan could have said "Don't Waste Your Life" as well, and said sea shells are a waste. To me that isn't a specifically Calvinistic message, and some Calvinists think it is legalistic. The basic concept fits in just as well in a fundamentalist scheme, or conservative holiness, and various sorts of revivalism. I think Piper mainly jumped into the Open Theism controversy because Boyd was in his denomination. He's let a whole lot of false doctrine go by without comment through the years otherwise, even to the point of being chummy with the likes of Rick Warren.
 
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Right. But I don't think YRR reached critical mass or peaked until later. And that was just one event among many. That was before YouTube, so not that many saw it at the time, compared to even something like the "Shocking Youth Message" later on. The first T4G was 2006. Back then Calvinistic people could expect a hostile reception most places in the SBC, for example. But Olson was dealing more with scholars and students, which tend to have a higher proportion of Calvinists than laity. I'm sure you're right about Garland, although I'm not totally sure that you can lay that at the doorstep of Calvinism specifically. Various non-Calvinists have opposed psychology and social work on seminary campuses as well. Olson complains that Calvinists are too "my way or the highway." But if he had his way, would there be any Calvinists in any denomination or school he was a part of?
This is a more nuanced way of looking at it. My perception is probably less accurate given my age (I was 9 in 2006) and the fact that my father was a reformedish SBC pastor (RTS grad). I never experienced hostility towards Calvinism in my childhood. I reckon Piper's popularity in the late 90s and early 2000s was more of a cult following from those who read Desiring God and had heard him speak at conferences? My dad had Piper's Hebrews cassette set in the late 90s.

I referenced Mohler because the overall direction of the seminary was going somewhat Calvinistic at the time following the conservative resurgence. My professors in Texas (almost all CBF Truett/Baylor guys) spoke of Mohler like he was Satan enfleshed, citing the Garland issue and his role in normalizing Calvinism in the SBC.
 
I don't know that this applies to Olson as I frankly know almost nothing about him, but the moderates are sometimes denominationally referred to as later splits in the fundamentalist/modernist controversy that allow a broader range of views while rejecting some of the worst of theological liberalism and progressivism. For example, the OPC and PCA split earlier from the mainline church than the EPC and ECO. The ECO could be called moderates for sure. Likewise, the NALC and LCMC for Lutherans.
 
This is a more nuanced way of looking at it. My perception is probably less accurate given my age (I was 9 in 2006) and the fact that my father was a reformedish SBC pastor (RTS grad). I never experienced hostility towards Calvinism in my childhood. I reckon Piper's popularity in the late 90s and early 2000s was more of a cult following from those who read Desiring God and had heard him speak at conferences? My dad had Piper's Hebrews cassette set in the late 90s.

I referenced Mohler because the overall direction of the seminary was going somewhat Calvinistic at the time following the conservative resurgence. My professors in Texas (almost all CBF Truett/Baylor guys) spoke of Mohler like he was Satan enfleshed, citing the Garland issue and his role in normalizing Calvinism in the SBC.
Piper was gaining popularity to be sure, but at least in the SBC Calvinism was arguably still somewhat underground in 2000. Disgruntled Calvinistic Baptists who could not find a home in Baptist churches were a big reason for the PCA's growth during that period. Today, there's not much reason for a Baptist to go PCA, at least not in the previous way, which was to visit for a time while maintaining baptistic views, or maybe never abandoning them.

You're correct about Truett, of course. In addition to that, they insist that Mohler is just a dishonest opportunist who switched views on comp/egal in the early 80s when he saw which way the wind was blowing. Ironically, some of his critics from the right in the SBC in recent years have wondered the same thing given the turmoil over the SJWism that gained a foothold under his watch.
 
Another example of a moderate might be someone who remains personally orthodox but who rejects inerrancy or is sort of a "soft" inerrantist who doesn't want to break fellowship over the issue. Back in the 80s when the term became popular, a moderate was often someone with Barthian or neo-orthodox views as opposed to confessional or inerrantist on the one hand or basically unbelieving anti-supernaturalism (liberalism) on the other. 20 years ago, evangelicals in the PCUSA could generally be said to be this kind of moderate. A good many of them went on to "discern" that that there wasn't a problem with committed same-sex relationships. Some argued that we don't read the Bible the way that Hodge and Warfield did anymore, so why should we be literalists on that issue?

Today in the SBC, for example, almost no one claims to be a moderate. There was an uproar a couple of years ago when a man who was elected President of the SBC was described as a "moderate" by the mainstream media, mainly because the opposition took a hard stance against CRT, etc. By the standards of the 80s it is true that he isn't a moderate, although he may be a number of other things.

Some who are orthodox will start emphasizing some sort of pragmatism such as church growth methods, eventually de-emphasizing doctrine. Eventually, "outdated" views on sexual ethics and other issues are also de-emphasized if not outright rejected.

In some hands inerrancy dies the death of a thousand qualifications, and it is no surprise when the next generation rejects it. Several evangelical scholars who are generally conservative and who even claim to be inerrantists could be named.

A drift toward some sort of moderatism seems to be happening at Dallas Theological Seminary. After a generation of Progressive Dispensationalism (whether or not we think that move toward covenant premil was an improvement over their old views, it nonetheless represented a drift away from their doctrinal moorings), some of the motivation of which was looking for a basis for social justice advocacy which had been precluded by their older stance, we increasingly see egalitarianism and wokeness on the part of faculty and graduates. They had also started pushing church growth methods back in the 80s or 90s.

At roughly the same time, there was also doctrinal drift at Westminster Theological Seminary. Unlike Dallas and some other schools, they have been able to right the ship from what I understand. But the other schools may not have had someone like Enns who represented such a clear and direct challenge to their doctrinal stance. Perhaps in part due to its constituency mainly consisting of independent congregations, Dallas also seems to have a less engaged alumni base. Whenever I've encountered a grad and asked about the current state of the seminary, invariably I'll find that he isn't very familiar with developments over the past 20-25 years. By contrast, in Presbyterianism, even though most of the seminaries are independent, due to connectional polity, elders can't help but have some familiarity with the kinds of graduates the seminaries are producing.
 
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Today in the SBC, for example, almost no one claims to be a moderate. There was an uproar a couple of years ago when a man who was elected President of the SBC was described as a "moderate" by the mainstream media, mainly because the opposition took a hard stance against CRT, etc. By the standards of the 80s it is true that he isn't a moderate, although he may be a number of other things.
Look for the churches dual affiliated with the CBF (or even ABCUSA) and the local SBC conference and you'll find the self-declared moderates.
 
Look for the churches dual affiliated with the CBF (or even ABCUSA) and the local SBC conference and you'll find the self-declared moderates.
I would think that the number of those is dwindling. The generation of "moderates" that wanted to maintain some sort of Southern Baptist identity as a witness of is gradually passing away. If you hire a woman minister, you get booted from the SBC. And if you've never hired a woman, what does that make you from their point of view? The main ones that I can think of that continue are larger First Baptist type congregations.

I know of at least a couple of formerly CBF affiliated or friendly congregations that had clearly taken the "moderate" side that ended up calling conservative pastors within the past 10-15 years. In one case, apparently it was because despite their previous trend, the committee would only consider graduates of the 6 official SBC seminaries, which meant that unless the man had graduated more than a quarter century ago, he was likely to be fairly conservative.
 
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I would think that the number of those is dwindling. The generation of "moderates" that wanted to maintain some sort of Southern Baptist identity as a witness of is gradually passing away. If you hire a woman minister, you get booted from the SBC. And if you've never hired a woman, what does that make you from their point of view? The main ones that I can think of that continue are larger First Baptist type congregations.

I know of at least a couple of formerly CBF affiliated or friendly congregations that had clearly taken the "moderate" side that ended up calling conservative pastors within the past 10-15 years. In one case, apparently it was because despite their previous trend, the committee would only consider graduates of the 6 official SBC seminaries, which meant that unless the man had graduated more than a quarter century ago, he was likely to be fairly conservative.

Why would you get booted from the SBC for a female minister? I don't know that the SBC has ever had a position on this and I know of SBC churches with even female senior pastors. I guess some local associations may have a position on this.
 
Lots of SBC churches have ordained women at this point. They also baptize people in open homosexual relationships.
 
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