What Kind of Elements Should We Use?

[RamistThomist]

I am arguing for what we *ought* to do, if possible, not what your church does do. Or maybe it doesn't matter. Since I don't believe in transubstantiation, I do not believe that crackers and grape juice become bread and wine.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

When I saw the thread title, I thought it was a chemistry question at first until I saw what forum it was in.

 

[Sonoftheday]

I dont know if I would even bring it up if my church used anything other than my input (bread and Wine) as long as they used some form of bread and juice from the fruit of the vine. I would not partake if they tried using Cake and fruit punch as I have heard done in other churches. Someone please tell the people at the church I grew up in that those little pieces of paper-like crackers and grape juice was not as I was taught "The closest to what Jesus actually gave the Apostles".

 

[DMcFadden]

Hey don't knock the nearly universal Baptist practice. For many years I was privileged to participate in a monthly miracle: the changing of the wine into grape juice.

 

[moral necessity]

I think we should use bread and wine! But, how about unleavened bread vs. leavened? And, should the wine be drank from the same cup by everyone?

 

[Sonoftheday]

Hey don't knock the nearly universal Baptist practice. For many years I was privileged to participate in a monthly miracle: the changing of the wine into grape juice.

Wow, the church you attended must have been much more concerned with the sacrements than my own. I was only able to see that miracle 3 times a year, however I was given a sunday school message over Christ's great miracle of turning water into grape juice at least once a month.
That was when I was younger, once I grew older I got to hear about the great miracle of Christ turning water into..... water that was mixed with wine.

Something else that always confused me when I was told they drank Grape juice was how the Corinthians got drunk on grape juice.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Naphtali Press » Danger of Being Over Wise

 

[caoclan]

The last time I attended my former PCUSA church, they used a goldfish cracker and a grape (yes, a grape you had to chew). My wife and I did not partake and left the church later that day for our current PCA church.

 

[Sonoftheday]

What is "Spiritual Food"?

 

[DMcFadden]

The last time I attended my former PCUSA church, they used a goldfish cracker and a grape (yes, a grape you had to chew). My wife and I did not partake and left the church later that day for our current PCA church.

All kidding aside, I could care less whether the elements are unleavened bread and wine or something like unleavened bread and grape juice. My problem is with trendy substitutes such as goldfish, Oreo cookies, potato chips, coca cola, etc.

 

[caoclan]

Yeah, we were almost ready to leave the PCUSA for so many reasons, that just pushed us over the line. It was irreverent and upsetting to say the least.

 

[Coram Deo]

I believe that the Church should ONLY have Unleavened Bread and Fermented Wine as prescribed by Christ by the inference of the Second Commandment (RPW)..

There is symbolism behind the Unleavened Bread and Fermented Wine that Leaven Bread and Unfermented Grape Juice could never symbolize (Christ Sinless Body, Joy and Feasting with the Joy of Man's Heart, Marriage Supper Symbolism).

We have no right to change what Christ instituted even if it seems okay or even pragmatic in our own eyes.........

 

[moral necessity]

My problem is with trendy substitutes such as goldfish, Oreo cookies, potato chips, coca cola, etc.

Is this actually common? I'm shocked!

 

[Coram Deo]

Leaven symbolizes Sin and Unleaven symbolizes Sinless So Bread should be Unleaven for the Supper to properly symbolize Christ Body and also Christ used Unleaven Bread for the Supper and so showed us the proper way...

As for the Same Cup, I admit I have been shy on this one over the years due to Pragmatic reasons... It seemed Unhealthy and since I have weakened Immune System I seem to be more conscious over the health of a One Cup... But......

I read a really well done scientific paper on the One Cup and as long as the Cup is Silver which resist germs, that the content of the Cup is Wine which also kills germs and as long as people do NOT intict the bread into the Wine which could by carelessness dip their germed fingers into the Cup, It is completely safe and not a health risk even for me....

So my Pragmatic Argument failed.... So I have no reason against it....

By the way, Dipping the bread into the Wine is also not biblical as it mixes the elements...

I think we should use bread and wine! But, how about unleavened bread vs. leavened? And, should the wine be drank from the same cup by everyone?

 

[JBaldwin]

I think we should use bread and wine! But, how about unleavened bread vs. leavened? And, should the wine be drank from the same cup by everyone?

I had the same question. I always believed it was to be unleavened bread.

 

[RamistThomist]

What is "Spiritual Food"?

1 Corinthians 10

1For I want you to know, brothers,[a] that our fathers were all under(A) the cloud, and all(B) passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and(C) all ate the same(D) spiritual food, 4and(E) all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

 

[moral necessity]

I tend to agree with having unleavened bread. I'm not sure about the strictness of the method of partaking of the elements though. If one starts down that path, there's a whole lot of items to be considered, besides the using of the same cup. Jeremiah Burroughs' work entitled Gospel Worship was a great read; and he is one who very strenuously preached in the exactness of the method as well as the exactness of the elements. I'm not of that mindset at this time. Does anyone know if there are any churches today that focus on the method of partaking of the bread and wine to the degree that Burroughs was convicted?

 

[jaybird0827]

Bread and wine.

 

[DMcFadden]

My problem is with trendy substitutes such as goldfish, Oreo cookies, potato chips, coca cola, etc.

Is this actually common? I'm shocked!

Not in any church I pastored. But, in some circles, particularly youth camps and retreats, yes.

 

[Coram Deo]

I have heard of Scottish Presbyterian Church in Scotland do... I also have heard that my pastor would like to have tables to set up for the congregation to sit and eat around the tables but with the current location (A School Rental Gym Area), It is not practical.....

I tend to agree with having unleavened bread. I'm not sure about the strictness of the method of partaking of the elements though. If one starts down that path, there's a whole lot of items to be considered, besides the using of the same cup. Jeremiah Burroughs' work entitled Gospel Worship was a great read; and he is one who very strenuously preached in the exactness of the method as well as the exactness of the elements. I'm not of that mindset at this time. Does anyone know if there are any churches today that focus on the method of partaking of the bread and wine to the degree that Burroughs was convicted?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Bread and wine. Common bread for the culture, whatever that is, leavening does not matter.
Naphtali Press » Danger of Being Over Wise

 

[jaybird0827]

I tend to agree with having unleavened bread. I'm not sure about the method of partaking of the elements though. If one starts down that path, there's a whole lot of items to be considered, besides the using of the same cup. Jeremiah Burroughs' work entitled Gospel Worship was a great read; and he is one who very strenuously preached in the exactness of the method as well as the exactness of the elements. I'm not of that mindset at this time. Does anyone know if there are any churches today that focus on the method of partaking of the bread and wine to the degree that Burroughs was convicted?

You must've read my mind. We're going through that in family-worship as our Session has scheduled the Lord's Supper for 02/10/2008 D.V.

I don't see how it's possible to conclude anything other than bread and wine as far as Burroughs' view.

As far as churches that "focus on the method ... Burroughs ..." our congregation and one or two others in our communion are the closest I've ever seen.

 

[Zenas]

The last time I attended my former PCUSA church, they used a goldfish cracker and a grape (yes, a grape you had to chew). My wife and I did not partake and left the church later that day for our current PCA church.

Ahhh! You're from Independent!

(I'm kidding!)

What church did that? I'm not familiar with all the PCUSA churches in the area, but I know of a few. Also, which RC church were you raised in here, assuming you were raised here.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Naphtali Press » Danger of Being Over Wise

Bread and wine. Common bread for the culture, whatever that is, leavening does not matter.
Naphtali Press » Danger of Being Over Wise

Helping re-format the footnotes for Wordpress caused me to remember this article.

 

[jawyman]

I believe in kosher wine and unleavened bread. Jesus and the disciples were in the upper room to celebrate the Passover and I believe that we should be as true to the Last Supper as Christ was with His disciples. Orthodox Jews of which they were would have drank wine and eaten unleaven bread. I also believe the Lord said cup (singular). I would prefer a common cup.

Lk 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. - NIV

 

[Zenas]

If that's the case, then I'd like to drink first.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

A short story to illustrate the problem in American Evangelicalism today.

Around 2000 I encouraged a long time Marine friend to begin attending our OPC congregation in Temecula. He eventually joined and is now a Presbyterian with his family after being in Calvary Chapel for many years.

His step-father was (is?) a worship leader in an Assemblies of God congregation. The man had many friends who had gone to the "Pensacola Outpouring" and he refused to criticize the heresy and craziness ongoing there on the basis of the "good men" he knew that considered it a real work of God.

Anyhow, he visited our congregation once and when the Lord's Supper came around he and his wife were absolutely incensed that wine was being served.

Indeed, like many Evangelicals today, it truly is that which comes from without that defiles a man but not from within. The Scriptures are turned on their heads and, while most could care less about Soteriology, people will have an absolute fit if you actually use wine for the Lord's Supper.

 

[moral necessity]

I know of a pastor who serves wine in cups in the outer rim of the communion tray, and grape juice in the cups in the inner holes within the tray, so that partakers can choose according to their conscience before the Lord.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I know of a pastor who serves wine in cups in the outer rim of the communion tray, and grape juice in the cups in the inner holes within the tray, so that partakers can choose according to their conscience before the Lord.

I do too. We attended a PCA in VA like that.

 

[Herald]

shhhh. I'm a Baptist who voted but I won't say how I voted. Oh, wait. The votes are unanimous so far.