What took place when Jesus was in the "grave" before rising?
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Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
How then was his going to paradise him taking our sins (rather than that being him announcing that the sacrifice and victory is complete)? It appears to me the atonement was made at the exact point in time he actually breathed his last...
This is a plug for Danny Hyde's book. It is really good. It deals with some of the contemporary and old controversies concerning this topic and the 'Apostle's Creed.
This is the cheapest place I could find it.
https://www.christianbook.com/in-defense-of-the-descent/daniel-hyde/9781601780898/pd/780898
They did a podcast review of it on Reformed Forum.
http://reformedforum.org/rmr68/
Enjoy
This is the cheapest place I could find it.
https://www.christianbook.com/in-defense-of-the-descent/daniel-hyde/9781601780898/pd/780898
They did a podcast review of it on Reformed Forum.
http://reformedforum.org/rmr68/
Enjoy
What took place when Jesus was in the "grave" before rising?
Made some comments on this topic on facebook that drew some people in to something that might have looked like a debate
My comment was on the lyric of Kari Jobe's song 'Forever';
'A battle in the grave, the war on death was waged, the power of hell forever broken'
My comment was that the war on death was not waged in the grave, there was no struggle against the devil on the grave; so the lyrics are misleading and miss the biblical focus on gethsemane and the cross. This drew some comments from those who think Jesus went to hell to take the keys of death from Satan during the time of his death and from those who have a hard time in general with anyone thinking critically about such songs.
As I thought about it at the time; there are a number of significant concepts that a person needs to have straight in their mind in order to grasp the reality of the death of the incarnate God-man. Hypostatic union, the nature of death as it relates to body/soul/spirit, the imputation of sin, the nature and meaning of 'the keys to death and hades', and so on. So it's a place that people can get confused in if they aren't learned/grounded in some of these other areas.
In my view; Jesus war against the forces of hell came through the abandonment of his disciples; his rejection by the scribes and Pharisees; his false arrest and illegal trial; his mocking and ultimately his crucifixion, where after all this from the world and the devil, God himself rejected and crushed him. The moment he said it is finished; the scripture of Isaiah concerning the suffering servant would have been fulfilled; and so he was now able to give up his spirit and let his body go into death while in the spirit he went to paradise (along with the thief on the cross; 'today' was the promise). So after death, nothing remains to be accomplished in regard to atonement.
The atonement is the fulfillment of everything prior and the foundation of everything preceding. When Jesus said 'It is finished' and breathed his last; that was the end of everything he came to accomplish in his incarnation; the completion of a life lived to perfection under the law of God; to put right what Adam put wrong; to succeed where Israel failed; you could add the list from Daniels prophecy here too. His whole life in a sense was the atonement because every moment he was kept, and he kept himself, pure and without spot or blemish in order that the sacrifice of himself in the end would be acceptable according to the terms of the covenant of redemption.
Sorry if I rambled a bit here, was interrupted several times during the writing and had to try to get back on my train of thought...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Made some comments on this topic on facebook that drew some people in to something that might have looked like a debate
My comment was on the lyric of Kari Jobe's song 'Forever';
'A battle in the grave, the war on death was waged, the power of hell forever broken'
My comment was that the war on death was not waged in the grave, there was no struggle against the devil on the grave; so the lyrics are misleading and miss the biblical focus on gethsemane and the cross. This drew some comments from those who think Jesus went to hell to take the keys of death from Satan during the time of his death and from those who have a hard time in general with anyone thinking critically about such songs.
As I thought about it at the time; there are a number of significant concepts that a person needs to have straight in their mind in order to grasp the reality of the death of the incarnate God-man. Hypostatic union, the nature of death as it relates to body/soul/spirit, the imputation of sin, the nature and meaning of 'the keys to death and hades', and so on. So it's a place that people can get confused in if they aren't learned/grounded in some of these other areas.
In my view; Jesus war against the forces of hell came through the abandonment of his disciples; his rejection by the scribes and Pharisees; his false arrest and illegal trial; his mocking and ultimately his crucifixion, where after all this from the world and the devil, God himself rejected and crushed him. The moment he said it is finished; the scripture of Isaiah concerning the suffering servant would have been fulfilled; and so he was now able to give up his spirit and let his body go into death while in the spirit he went to paradise (along with the thief on the cross; 'today' was the promise). So after death, nothing remains to be accomplished in regard to atonement.
The atonement is the fulfillment of everything prior and the foundation of everything preceding. When Jesus said 'It is finished' and breathed his last; that was the end of everything he came to accomplish in his incarnation; the completion of a life lived to perfection under the law of God; to put right what Adam put wrong; to succeed where Israel failed; you could add the list from Daniels prophecy here too. His whole life in a sense was the atonement because every moment he was kept, and he kept himself, pure and without spot or blemish in order that the sacrifice of himself in the end would be acceptable according to the terms of the covenant of redemption.
Sorry if I rambled a bit here, was interrupted several times during the writing and had to try to get back on my train of thought...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kaleb, those are good words, well said.
Jason,
The Heidelberg Catechism (http://files.puritanboard.com/confessions/heidelbergcatechism.htm) has expressed clear answers to some of these questions. Especially the following...
Question 37. What dost thou understand by the words, "He suffered"?
Answer: That he, all the time that he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, sustained in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind: (a) that so by his passion, as the only propitiatory sacrifice, (b) he might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation, (c) and obtain for us the favour of God, righteousness and eternal life. (d)
(a) Isa.53:4. 1 Pet.2:24; 3:18. 1 Tim.2:6. (b) Isa.53:10,12. Eph.5:2. 1 Cor.5:7. 1 John 2:2; 4:10. Rom.3:25. Heb.9:28; 10:14. (c) Gal.3:13. Col.1:13. Heb.9:12. 1 Pet.1:18,19. (d) Rom.3:25. 2 Cor.5:21. John 3:16; 6:51. Heb.9:15,19.
Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?
Answer: That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, (a) but especially on the cross, has delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell. (b)
(a) Ps.18:5,6; 116:3. Matt.26:38. Heb.5:7. Isa.53:10. Matt.27:46. (b) Isa.53:5.
Regarding anything that took place during the time his body laid still in the tomb, Scripture says nothing but that the dying thief on the cross would join him in heaven. There are some who, misinterpreting 1Pet.3:19, teach that Christ went into hell to proclaim his victory there, or humiliate Satan, or take prisoners out of there; and the like. Though I know there are evasions, yet this teaching prima facie contradicts Jesus' own teaching from the cross.
Jason,
The Heidelberg Catechism (http://files.puritanboard.com/confessions/heidelbergcatechism.htm) has expressed clear answers to some of these questions. Especially the following...
Question 37. What dost thou understand by the words, "He suffered"?
Answer: That he, all the time that he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, sustained in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind: (a) that so by his passion, as the only propitiatory sacrifice, (b) he might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation, (c) and obtain for us the favour of God, righteousness and eternal life. (d)
(a) Isa.53:4. 1 Pet.2:24; 3:18. 1 Tim.2:6. (b) Isa.53:10,12. Eph.5:2. 1 Cor.5:7. 1 John 2:2; 4:10. Rom.3:25. Heb.9:28; 10:14. (c) Gal.3:13. Col.1:13. Heb.9:12. 1 Pet.1:18,19. (d) Rom.3:25. 2 Cor.5:21. John 3:16; 6:51. Heb.9:15,19.
Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?
Answer: That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, (a) but especially on the cross, has delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell. (b)
(a) Ps.18:5,6; 116:3. Matt.26:38. Heb.5:7. Isa.53:10. Matt.27:46. (b) Isa.53:5.
Regarding anything that took place during the time his body laid still in the tomb, Scripture says nothing but that the dying thief on the cross would join him in heaven. There are some who, misinterpreting 1Pet.3:19, teach that Christ went into hell to proclaim his victory there, or humiliate Satan, or take prisoners out of there; and the like. Though I know there are evasions, yet this teaching prima facie contradicts Jesus' own teaching from the cross.
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Jesus stated that it was finished/accomplished on the Cross when he died, so the full atonement was performed there, as shown By God ripping the Curtin in the Temple!
Also, the concept of Him needed to suufer in hell for sins and to battle satan is from heresy of the Word of Faith movemnent, and popular songs like was referenced earlier!
Also, the concept of Him needed to suufer in hell for sins and to battle satan is from heresy of the Word of Faith movemnent, and popular songs like was referenced earlier!
Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
As always, thank you for your resourceful responses!
I did have a follow up question in connection with the above: in what way/how/chronologically did Jesus' take the full wrath of God? I see above where, from Kaleb's helpful post, he said "Jesus war against the forces of hell came through the abandonment of his disciples; his rejection by the scribes and Pharisees; his false arrest and illegal trial; his mocking and ultimately his crucifixion, where after all this from the world and the devil, God himself rejected and crushed him" but I cant help but not seeing how those (seemingly) very temporal things that Jesus faced (abandonment of disciples, rejection by religious elite, etc.) atoned for billions of sinners' eternity of torment?
I would assume the atonement/wrath was at the point that God had "forsaken" Jesus, but what then was the moment of Jesus' being forsaken, and the main question (as above), what was the nature of God forsaking Jesus?
Jesus became the Sin Bearer for our sakes, and when the fullness of sin was "dumped" on Him at the Cross, For that brief period of time, for THE only time, the Father had to break hIS ETERNAL FELLOESHIPWITH THE Son...
This is a great mystery, that really we cannot fully understand at this time...
This is a great mystery, that really we cannot fully understand at this time...
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
"Breaking eternal fellowship" is an infelicitous way of describing the situation as it may lead to many misunderstandings related to the incarnation. Gill is perhaps more helpful:
"When He is said to be "forsaken" of God; the meaning is not, that the hypostatic union was dissolved, which was not even by death itself; the fullness of the Godhead still dwelt bodily in him: nor was Christ separated from the love of God; He had the same interest in his Father's heart and favor, both as his Son, and as mediator, as ever: nor was the principle and habit of joy and comfort lost in his soul, as man, but Christ was now without a sense of the gracious presence of God, and was filled, as the surety of his people, with a sense of divine wrath, which their iniquities Christ now bore, deserved, and which was necessary for Him to endure, in order to make full satisfaction for them; for one part of the punishment of sin is loss of the divine presence. "
Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
Perfect! This is just what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing...
While I have your ear (as posted above), I did have a follow up question in connection with the above: in what way/how/chronologically did Jesus' take the full wrath of God? I see above where, from Kaleb's helpful post, he said "Jesus war against the forces of hell came through the abandonment of his disciples; his rejection by the scribes and Pharisees; his false arrest and illegal trial; his mocking and ultimately his crucifixion, where after all this from the world and the devil, God himself rejected and crushed him" but I cant help but not seeing how those (seemingly) very temporal things that Jesus faced (abandonment of disciples, rejection by religious elite, etc.) atoned for billions of sinners' eternity of torment?
I would assume the atonement/wrath was at the point that God had "forsaken" Jesus, but what then was the moment of Jesus' being forsaken, and the main question (as above), what was the nature of God forsaking Jesus?
Whatever it was, Jesus never ceased being God, never became a sinner, and he was still in same relationship with His father...
My understand would be that He experience at those moments same feelings that lost sinners will apart from God in hell, but could be wrong...
My understand would be that He experience at those moments same feelings that lost sinners will apart from God in hell, but could be wrong...
We need to appreciate many things in connection. He was the Lamb of God as soon as he came into the world. So he goes on his entire earthly life in some sense as the object-to-be of God's wrath. Yet, he must be first approved by the Father, "This is My beloved Son."
The Passover lamb was set aside on the 10th day, and slain on the 14th, Ex.12:3,6. Jesus receives God's public approval out of heaven in Jerusalem one last time, Jn.12:28. And then the hour of darkness's power (Lk.22:53) begins to descend. Jesus' soul begins its awful trial, Jn.12:27. It does not fall all in one instance, but the cup of divine wrath begins to turn over, the contents spilling over and into the throat of the Lord. It pours, and it pours, and becomes a flood. And when the Son of Man is lifted up, he is accursed of God, Gal.2:13. He feels forsaken, utterly. He drains the cup to its dregs, and casts it away. "It is finished."
It is not in the physical things Jesus suffered--which are significant in themselves but not completely so--but the spiritual hell, symbolized and signified by all those bodily and mental sufferings of Christ, that finally atones for sin. Jesus, his flesh sustained by his divine Spirit, and being so infinitely worthy of his Father's love and approval, he endured that wrath of God against sin, even the sin of an entire world of those to be redeemed. His life was worth not merely one-for-one, but one for all those his people who draw near, cf. Lev.16:15.
As for "temporal things," I sincerely pray you do not despise the instruments God has chosen to show forth the greatness of his mercy. He made the frail life of his Son to suffice for the sin of the world. And that declaration should be enough for us. The nature of God forsaking Jesus was more than the equivalent of the hell that will forever separate all those who remain apart from Christ. For they will never drain the cup of the wrath they drink.
Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
---Hmm Im not sure why you would have jumped to that conclusion
Perhaps you went there based off of this question (which I will expand):
How could temporal things/punishments that exist in time have been in any way atoning for the worlds eternal punishment? Indeed I believe that all these things played a role in the atonement, but I would think that it was based in the fact that somehow, in some way, there was a serious amount of punishment inflicted upon Jesus that I could know nothing about - I dont doubt that Jesus friends abandoning him was torture, and I dont doubt that his being physically tortured wasnt a horrific instance, but those are things that other humans have the capability of facing, therefore it either must be that when he faced these temporal things they were in some way on a divine level (and felt/experienced in a divine capacity) OR there is something else that we really see "wow, that is an incredible weigh to bear that only God-man/Jesus could have survived... I really think it is rooted in, as you said, the "hour of darkness's power (Lk.22:53)" as the moment where the unbearable was born by the incarnate God... Thoughts?
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
As well as Rev. Buchanan's excellent response and Patrick's citation of Gill, I heard Ligon Duncan speak on the matter in a Ligonier conference in the link below. He spoke of how the whole life of Jesus was an oppression (from without); that he was oppressed and assaulted 24/7 while here on earth. The whole conference is really good, but the Q&A #2 and Q&A #3 are where some good interaction happens between Drs. Duncan, Ferguson, Godfrey, and Sproul.
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/conferences/orlando_2004_national_conference/
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/conferences/orlando_2004_national_conference/
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OK. My concern is that you should not take the Savior's temporal sufferings, putting them in a category sealed off from the Lord's atonement. As if, the only meaningful portion of his grief (Is.53:10) is that which he bore spiritually. As if the torments he endured in the body, in his flesh, in his psychology--these things were only incidental to the atonement. The wicked are promised their own resurrection-unto-dishonor, why? Because their eternal punishment will take place in both their bodies and their souls. If the judgment of God is against the full person, a body and soul unity, then it had to be the case that our Lord and Savior suffered our punishment, body and soul, in our stead.
You wondered how I jumped to a conclusion.... Well, it was not a conclusion, but a fear. My prayer was/is that you will not press your doubts expressed (if I may condense the thought), How could limited, temporal sufferings suffice for neverending misery that is fitting, when that seems impossible and unreasonable? You are correct to surmise there is MORE to what we see than meets the eye, when we encounter our Lord upon his cross. Much, much more. The infinite wrath of God is present; but also, the Savior's infinite divinity is present in hypostatic union with his humanity. And because of that infinite power, Christ is equal to the task.
It is not the excess of his pain, or how long it is drawn out, or any other quantifiable measure of Jesus' miseries of this life which render them of any value, let alone infinite value. It is WHO he is. He did not deserve to "strike his foot against a stone," to stub his toe in other words. And he goes through far more than that. All we need to acknowledge is that it was enough. Enough to prove he has shared in our bodily suffering; and all the way unto death.
Yes, there have been people, any one of which for whom an argument could be made: he endured more physical agonies or greater psychological degradation on the way to his death. But in the end, that is our own subjective and psychological projection of a comparison. We actually have no good standard of comparison, because none of us have ever been sinless.
Think for just a moment of some scarred person, wounded tremendously, but still alive years later but always in pain. And finally, he succumbs to the effect of his injury. There are people today who boldly declare: "My private hell-on-earth is all the suffering I would ever need, and more. I did not deserve this. God owes me now." Such attitudes are not uncommon, even with some who have had comparatively comfortable lives. Jesus' great trial lasted "only" a few hours. Or "only" a few years. "Only 33yrs." Yet, without repentance, the suffering of this life is but a hint of eternal woe.
On the other hand, so excellent was Christ's person, and the satisfaction of "only 33yrs" or "only" his final 24hrs; that those temporal sufferings combined with his soul's endurance of the unmitigated wrath of God are regarded by God as sufficient. For not one other, or a handful of people; but for all the sins of all the elect from the beginning to the end of this age. There's something special about Jesus. And there's nothing special about any of the rest of us.
We're not in any position to test the measure of Jesus' temporal or his spiritual agonies. But we dare not relegate anything he bore in our place to the condition of a mere sign, something only indicative of his divine capacity. He suffered and died as a MAN. But one minuscule fraction of the pains that Man felt in his jangling nerves and psychic pathways is worth more than a lifetime of your pains or mine, be they 2yrs, 20yrs, 100yrs, or 969yrs. Because he was unique.
Stope
Puritan Board Sophomore
OK. My concern is that you should not take the Savior's temporal sufferings, putting them in a category sealed off from the Lord's atonement
---I have not and do not... My only question is how does a temporal duration of suffering atone for what should be an eternal duration of suffering (unless somehow Jesus' "temporal" sufferings are more than meet the eye)
The wicked are promised their own resurrection-unto-dishonor, why? Because their eternal punishment will take place in both their bodies and their souls. If the judgment of God is against the full person, a body and soul unity, then it had to be the case that our Lord and Savior suffered our punishment, body and soul, in our stead.
---A very good point, thanks for sharing!
My prayer was/is that you will not press your doubts expressed (if I may condense the thought), How could limited, temporal sufferings suffice for never-ending misery that is fitting, when that seems impossible and unreasonable?
---Its not that these are "doubts" (I have no doubt that somehow and in someway Jesus atoned for our sins by suffering as a human and divine), Im just trying to understand how, AT FACE VALUE, it APPEARS Jesus' suffering was temporal and so Im just confused how that temporal suffering atones for humankind's (should-be) eternal suffering (unless, as noted above there is more than meets the eye)
You are correct to surmise there is MORE to what we see than meets the eye, when we encounter our Lord upon his cross. Much, much more. The infinite wrath of God is present; but also, the Savior's infinite divinity is present in hypostatic union with his humanity. And because of that infinite power, Christ is equal to the task.
---Indeed it all comes back to this, this is the question I started with (and thank you all, and especially you brother) for engaging with me, and that is: I ONLY am able to see/comprehend the seemingly "temporal" sufferings of Jesus, and I assume that, as you said, "there is MORE to what we see than meets the eye, when we encounter our Lord upon his cross. Much, much more. The infinite wrath of God is present", so the question ca be summed in:
In what way was "The infinite wrath of God is present" in Jesus' process (?) of atonement?
Being forsaken is abandonment. "G'bye, forever. See you in hell."
What is utter alienation from all and everything? What does unrelieved hatred of God, all others, and even one's own self feel like? That's hell. No friends to meet up with there; "Hell is a place of perfect malice and contention," Jonathan Edwards. Hell is an encounter with one distilled element of the divine nature: wrath.
2Ths.1:9, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," The best illustration I can think of for this description is a "blast radius" that never slows its rate of expansion and departure from the epicenter. The alienation of hell is a neverending departure from God's face, from proximity where he receives and blesses.
When the Son drained the divine cup of wrath, he experienced the equivalent of being destroyed away from the presence of his Father, forever. His divine infinity swallows up the full infinity of divine wrath. (Some math-skills might come in handy right there.)
I like to say: that we all were past the point-of-no-return, in terms of our destiny. And Jesus came, by dint of his suffering, and found us way past that point, and went beyond for us--all the way THERE (where some will spend all eternity never arriving)--and came back again. That's impossible for anyone...except the God-man.
Maybe these thoughts will answer your curiosity, in some way.
What is utter alienation from all and everything? What does unrelieved hatred of God, all others, and even one's own self feel like? That's hell. No friends to meet up with there; "Hell is a place of perfect malice and contention," Jonathan Edwards. Hell is an encounter with one distilled element of the divine nature: wrath.
2Ths.1:9, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," The best illustration I can think of for this description is a "blast radius" that never slows its rate of expansion and departure from the epicenter. The alienation of hell is a neverending departure from God's face, from proximity where he receives and blesses.
When the Son drained the divine cup of wrath, he experienced the equivalent of being destroyed away from the presence of his Father, forever. His divine infinity swallows up the full infinity of divine wrath. (Some math-skills might come in handy right there.)
I like to say: that we all were past the point-of-no-return, in terms of our destiny. And Jesus came, by dint of his suffering, and found us way past that point, and went beyond for us--all the way THERE (where some will spend all eternity never arriving)--and came back again. That's impossible for anyone...except the God-man.
Maybe these thoughts will answer your curiosity, in some way.
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