When Can We Assume God's Judgment?

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I've been pondering for a little while - God's judgments and actions against wickedness.

Jesus taught:
Luke 13:4-5 4 "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Christ, for example, saw God's judgment upon sin in the tower of Siloam. In the same manner they were judged, so others in like manner should not view themselves as "less than sinners" because "unless they repent" this will LIKEWISE perish.

When we see tsunamis, or earthquakes, or busloads of people killed in freak accidents, buildings burning to the ground, etc. where lots of people (more than 17 as in Siloam) are killed, or have miseries in this life as a result of their sin, how much of that can we place on God's judgment on sin?

WLC says:

Q28: What are the punishments of sin in this world?
A28: The punishments of sin in this world are either inward, as blindness of mind,[1] a reprobate sense,[2] strong delusions,[3] hardness of heart,[4] horror of conscience,[5] and vile affections;[6] or outward, as the curse of God upon the creatures for our sakes,[7] and all other evils that befall us in our bodies, names, estates, relations, and employments;[8] together with death itself.[9]

1. Eph. 4:18
2. Rom. 1:28
3. II Thess. 2:11
4. Rom. 2:5
5. Isa. 33:14; Gen. 4:13; Matt. 27:4
6. Rom. 1:26
7. Gen. 3:17
8. Deut. 28:15-18
9. Rom. 6:21, 23

Even to the extent of our bodies (sickness), names (reputations), estates (wealth), relations (any kind of frienships), and employments (any and all) judgments can be seen.

How much weight can be inwardly pondered as to the extent of God's "reach" in these matters?

Your thoughts?

 

[Chris]

I think the best, most solid theological answer possible might be to say 'I don't know'.

If 3 atheists stand in the rain and scream at God, and He strikes none of them down, I'd call that judgment. If He strikes one down, I'd call that mercy to the other two - who have now an impetus to believe.

Katrina? Probably.
Another Clinton in the White House? Definitely.

When the children of Israel desired a king, out of envy of the other societies who had kings around them, God's judgment upon them was to give them what they desired - so they got bumbling, stumbling Saul, a good-looking moron if one ever lived.

I honestly believe that God quite often pronounces judment upon us by giving what we ask for, as a society.

Look at the state of our nation. Every wart on the face of our society is a direct result of our getting what a portion of society has asked for, unintended consequences and all.

Anyway, this is an excellent question, and I look forward to reading other people's thoughts on it.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

See this thread: Special Providences.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I know that Christ is the omniscient God of the universe, but it was not always exercised in that capacity in His earthly travail. In other words, Christ saw God's judgment on sinners when a tower fell on them.

Do you know of any other sections of scripture in the NT (there are lots in the OT) about similar things?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

The big problem, of course, is the attempt to draw lines of correlation between, say "Katrina," and "Mardis Gras in N.O." Unless Joe is receiving New Revelation, there is no way to posit that God is using X to judge Y, in a kind of elementary calculus.

What we can do, on the other hand, is say that sin in some locale makes it worthy of the justice of God--any manifestation of it--including the Last Judgment. Thus, signal events of judgment have consistently been interpreted as warnings from God to turn away from unrighteousness, worldliness, self-seeking pleasure, and the like.

A Puritan pastor in New England might and often did interpret pestilences, crop failures, or deadly storms as just desert for certain corporate sins they would identify. This did no doubt cross the line of propriety, and the more careful observers of Reformed religion in that day likely regarded such declarations with the same dubiety as we should JerryFalwell indicting American toleration of hmsx as the "cause" of 9-11.

On the other hand, pastors often use specific examples of sin to illustrate a general principle, and they could be misunderstood as identifying a "culprit" when they meant nothing so definite. For it is certainly true that Paul runs down a litany of evils in Rom. 1, and uses hmsx as a gross exemplar, and plainly concludes that the consequences of all that evil--and that sin in particular--reap devastating consequences.

So, do we believe that God is the God of mercy and judgment? We must, if we are going to be biblical. And the mercies of Providence, no less than judgment, should be viewed as grace extended on behalf of Christ to undeserving sinners, even when it is "naturally consequential," and the links are surface-plain. Our failure is primarily when we do not recognize the limits of our creaturliness and we connect events in a post hoc ergo proctor hoc fashion, in the absence of prophecy.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well said Bruce.

I remember in the wake of 9/11, my Church gathered to pray, mainly for grief's sake. Any death is a manifestitation that the Curse remains upon the world. The godly will see such judgment and praise God for His mercy that they no longer stand under the condemnation that they deserve apart from Christ. They can thank God that, even when a Christian is caught up in the devastation, that ultimate judgment does not befall that individual.

I remember hearing from my friend that attends a large Calvary Chapel in Monterey. The pastor there had a gathering. Purpose? To explain how it fell in line with their end times schema. Many of you probably remember all the tacky pics with "last days" verses placarded on them.

The ungodly are able to stand back as if they belong to a different group and proclaim: "If you were like us, that sin wouldn't have befallen you." Like Job's friends, they try to establish a formula that attributes blessing to particular righteousness and calamity to particular sin.

Those that trust the living God should always grieve in recognition that they have more in common, intrinsically, with the wicked who receive judgment than the one who Judges. They shoul also continue to trust in God in the midst of calamity and recognize that God never answers the "Why" but dares a man to answer to Him. The conclusion of Job is very powerful: the godly can rest in the answer that "I am God and you are not."

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Perhaps you should ask Job that question Matt?

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Great point.

In "Two Wills" I cover the idea that when it rains on the just and unjust, does not mean that when it "tornados" or "earthquakes" on the just and unjust it is a cause for the just and unjust being "judged." That would make little sense, as in the case with Job.

I'm curious, though, to wonder why Christ so linked the Tower with Judgment.

Pondering still.

Bruce, great points.

 

[BJClark]

C. Matthew McMahon;

I know that Christ is the omniscient God of the universe, but it was not always exercised in that capacity in His earthly travail. In other words, Christ saw God's judgment on sinners when a tower fell on them.

Do you know of any other sections of scripture in the NT (there are lots in the OT) about similar things?

The one that jumps out at me in the NT is Acts 5; Ananias and Sapphira, who were both struck dead for lying..

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Great point.

In "Two Wills" I cover the idea that when it rains on the just and unjust, does not mean that when it "tornados" or "earthquakes" on the just and unjust it is a cause for the just and unjust being "judged." That would make little sense, as in the case with Job.

I'm curious, though, to wonder why Christ so linked the Tower with Judgment.

I think the point Jesus was trying to make was that they using the wrong standard to measure judgment. They were using a similar standard that Job's "freinds" used in judging Job. Basically, bad things happen to you because you deserve it. Good things happen because you deserve it. But Jesus cuts through all that nonsense reminding them of eternal judgment to come if they don't repent. I don't think Jesus was saying that physical calamity will necessarily befall them if they don't repent. There are plenty of wicked people in the world who die peacefully. And plenty of righteous people, believers, who suffer great injustice in this life. Jesus also may be saying, that unless you repent this is what you likewise deserve essentially leveling the self-righteous playing feild.

 

[Scott]

It seems that the scriptures teach that in some circumstances we can recognize hardship and suffering as a temporal punishment of God. In some circumstances we are not left to wonder. Heb. 12:

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Following Proverbs, Hebrews teaches Christians to expect discipline (in the form of hardship, or temoporal judgments) as punishment, much as a child is punished by a parent. As a child is supposed to learn from that punishment, so Christians are supposed to learn from hardships the Father brings on us.

That does not mean that all hardship is b/c of sin (eg. Jesus, Job), but some is, and we are expected to recognize when. A Christian should be very worried if he is in open and known sin but does not experience hardship and suffering. It means that he is not a legitimate child of God. Heb. 12:8.

And again, to be clear, the Bible does not teach that all suffering is punishment. If someone is suffering, it may be punishment. He should examine his life and see if there is a connection. This requires wisdom.

 

[Scott]

I don't think Jesus was saying that physical calamity will necessarily befall them if they don't repent. There are plenty of wicked people in the world who die peacefully. And plenty of righteous people, believers, who suffer great injustice in this life.

This is true. Yet there are some temporal judgments in this life. And there is some temporal justices in this life too. The temporal judgments are foretastes of the final judgment to come. They are representative warnings.

 

[BJClark]

Sometimes, the harships are 1. because of their own sins they need to confess and repent, 2. and sometimes the suffering is caused by those around them who are in sin, and they are kinda of caught in the cross fire of the consequences the other person is suffering, 3. and then many times.. people suffer only because of the fall of man.