Where do we spend eternity?

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In the last few years I've grown a lot in my knowledge of the Christian faith (and Reformed doctrine in particular); but for whatever reason, I've given scant attention to end-times matters, or to pondering heaven itself. Perhaps I subconsciously shy away from eschatological debates as being somewhat tedious, who knows.

At any rate, I recently heard a pastor preach that, at the Last Day, our bodies will be raised, caught up into the air and re-united with our souls, and that we will then return to the earth with Jesus for the final judgment. He then went on to say that we would spend all of eternity here and that this earth will be our eternal home. On other occasions when I've heard this, it's been used as an argument for caring for the earth, though I don't think this particular pastor would ever make such an argument.

I've heard similar things before, and I'm not sure what to make of them in light of Scripture speaking of a new heaven and new earth, or of this earth being destroyed by fire. I'm not so naive as to still envision our eternal destiny as sitting on a cloud with halo and harp, but I have traditionally thought that we would be raised and taken to "heaven" - that the new heaven and new earth, whatever it's like, is "up there" somewhere, and very different from where we are now.
 
Kind of took references to "new heaven" and "new earth" as synecdochic of the entirety of new creation (the part representing the whole).

It seems to me that God gives us very few concrete details of the eternal state, other than a few very vague concepts and word pictures like the above, to drive home the fact that "eye has not seen, nor ear heard." And then those tantalizing hints of continuity and discontinuity....

It's really not enough to derive much a sense of location at all, I think. It may be the wrong question.
 
In a nutshell, JP – both heaven and hell are intermediate states where the souls of the departed go before the resurrection. After the resurrection, when all souls are united to their bodies, every human who ever lived will stand before the Lord on His throne of glory and judgment (Matt 25:31,32 ff; Rev 20:11,12,13,14,15). The unforgiven unrepentant are sent to the lake of fire, the forgiven elect to New Earth (2 Pet 3:10,11,12,13). I believe the great judgment takes place in the heavens, and not on New Earth (2 Pet 3:7). The New Earth, and New Jerusalem (the corporate body of Christ glorified) is only for the redeemed (Rev 21:1,2,3,4).

On the great day of resurrection the Lord shall call us to Himself (1 Thess 4:16,17,18), and we shall be with Him forever. The triune God will be with us on paradise New Earth, we the children of God, and the bride of His Son, Jesus Christ. He is now preparing dwellings for His beloved when they arrive on New Earth (John 14:1,2,3). Indeed, all of the creation will be made new – the entire universe. Likely not destroyed before remade, but the impurities of our and the devils corruptions burned off, purified.
 
Jerusalem Blade said:
In a nutshell, JP – both heaven and hell are intermediate states where the souls of the departed go before the resurrection. After the resurrection, when all souls are united to their bodies, every human who ever lived will stand before the Lord on His throne of glory and judgment (Matt 25:31,32 ff; Rev 20:11,12,13,14,15). The unforgiven unrepentant are sent to the lake of fire, the forgiven elect to New Earth (2 Pet 3:10,11,12,13). I believe the great judgment takes place in the heavens, and not on New Earth (2 Pet 3:7). The New Earth, and New Jerusalem (the corporate body of Christ glorified) is only for the redeemed (Rev 21:1,2,3,4).

On the great day of resurrection the Lord shall call us to Himself (1 Thess 4:16,17,18), and we shall be with Him forever. The triune God will be with us on paradise New Earth, we the children of God, and the bride of His Son, Jesus Christ. He is now preparing dwellings for His beloved when they arrive on New Earth (John 14:1,2,3). Indeed, all of the creation will be made new – the entire universe. Likely not destroyed before remade, but the impurities of our and the devils corruptions burned off, purified.
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Thank you for this summary. Where do you believe the "new heaven" fits in?
 
Hello PG – welcome to PuritanBoard! – in 2 Peter 3:10,11,12 we see that the heavens shall "pass away" and "the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved". Commentators have viewed this as indicating that the heavenlies have been inhabited by the demonic, Cf Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" – the phrase "high places" often translated "heavenly places", as high, from the Greek, epouranios, "above the sky, celestial" is where demonic powers abide. Also, we humans have filled the heavens with space junk, and military hardware.

The "new heaven" and "new earth" have been cleansed of all that, and are pristine. The entire created cosmos now filled with the holiness of God.
 
Thank you!

Jerusalem Blade said:
The triune God will be with us on paradise New Earth, we the children of God, and the bride of His Son, Jesus Christ. He is now preparing dwellings for His beloved when they arrive on New Earth (John 14:1,2,3)... Also, we humans have filled the heavens with space junk, and military hardware.
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Do you thus see the "new heavens" as the rest of the universe made new, apart from the earth?
 
PG, I would say yes, "the rest of the universe made new", as well as the earth. 2 Peter 3:13 says, "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

If the LORD has purposed to utterly destroy / dissolve the universe, we will see it happen. We were not there for the original creation – only having the record of it in Genesis (and other Scripture) – but we may have the privilege and wonder to see the LORD remake the new creation. What is Paul talking of in Romans 8:19,20,21,22 when he says, "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now", just us (our bodies) and the earth, or the entirety of the created order? I cannot be dogmatic about such things, but I can wonder regarding those things He has said
 
Jerusalem Blade said:
Hello PG – welcome to PuritanBoard! – in 2 Peter 3:10,11,12 we see that the heavens shall "pass away" and "the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved". Commentators have viewed this as indicating that the heavenlies have been inhabited by the demonic, Cf Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" – the phrase "high places" often translated "heavenly places", as high, from the Greek, epouranios, "above the sky, celestial" is where demonic powers abide. Also, we humans have filled the heavens with space junk, and military hardware.

The "new heaven" and "new earth" have been cleansed of all that, and are pristine. The entire created cosmos now filled with the holiness of God.
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Can you clarify what you are indicating here about physical low earth orbit/space and the heavenly places where the demons are inhabiting? I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding imprudent but are you saying space or at least just outside the atmosphere is filled with demons? I guess I always though the new heavens referred to like heaven where God dwells. I'll admit I have a good deal of fog on this topic so genuinely asking to learn.
 
Hello Ramón @Afterthought,

Could you possibly summarize the preacher's argument on the YouTube video? I don't have the time to spend an hour and fourteen minutes unless I think it worthwhile. Thanks!

Steve
 
Hello Aaron @aaronsk,

Here are some commentators on Ephesians 2:2, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

And Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [or heavenly NKJV, ESV, NASB, NIV] places."

Eph 2:2, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/2-2.htm
Eph 6:12, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/6-12.htm

Wherever actually in the heavenlies or atmosphere spirits may be, I think it is pretty clear they are about us. Seeing it is another dimension they dwell in – a spiritual realm – who can say how extensive this dimension is as regards the realm of matter, or what organized formations or hierarchies obtain there; we do not know, save to say they are an organized host under their prince, and at war on many fronts against humankind and against the saints.

We ourselves are to be armored, alert, and active in prayer and deed, under the direction of the King of heaven.
 
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@Jerusalem Blade Steve, thanks for the clarification & biblical wisdom on what we do in response. Follow up question- When the heavens are made new - is this the physically heavens (above the clouds, etc) or the spiritual realm heavens (to where Christ Ascended) or both? In my mind the physical was all wrapped up in the new earth and the new heavens indicated the spiritual realm would be made new as well (perhaps this means the demonic forces cleaned up in a sense).

thanks,
Aaron
 
Aaron, that's a good question! I do think the new earth pertains to what is earthly (even in the spiritually renewed earth and solar system there is still physical matter, albeit glorified, uncorrupted by sin), and the new heavens would indicate the spiritual realms – the former demonic realm now having been sent in its entirety into the lake of fire forever – cleansed of all evil, purified by the power and wisdom of God. Again, as the present demonic realm is another dimension we cannot know the extent of its reach as far as the material world or worlds are concerned.

The spirit realm where Christ ascended (Heb 12:22,23,24) is a solid realm, in a manner of speaking, where "city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" is. But when it comes down from heaven to dwell upon the earth it will take on itself some sort of corporeality. It is written, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev 21:2,3). In John 14:2,3 Jesus says He is going to prepare dwellings for us to live in when we go to be with Him – New Earth will be widely populated, and we shall have many dwellings there, on the earth where Jesus will be with us.

Now I understand that God the Father and the Holy Spirit will not be corporeal, yet God the eternal Son who also has a human body and nature will be visible to us, and likely we shall have spiritual vision so as to somehow clearly perceive our Heavenly Father, and also the Holy Spirit who indwells us and manifests the Godhead to us (Matt 5:8).

We will eat and drink there, build, and work, sing and dance (Isa 65:17,21,22,23). The physical creation was made – in paradise the first – as a home for humankind. We ruined it with our sin, yet God in His love and mercy made yet another paradise – this time for all redeemed humankind – on the new earth, a physical home perfectly adapted to our glorified yet physical bodies.

It was because Christ, in His incarnation, united with humankind, becoming one of us – that He could bring into union with Him those elect who cleaved to Him by faith, even to calling us His bride, and He the bridegroom:

For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church (Eph 5:30,31,32).

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife [ESV bride] hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God (Rev 19:7,8,9).​

So as Christ is filled with the glory of the triune God, and we united to Him in closer union than an earthy wife is with her husband, we shall partake of the spiritual riches of Him who is our King and spiritual Husband, world without end.
 
As a seafaring man, I hope this whole thing about there being "no more sea" is symbolic--I'm hoping for some epic voyages in a boat that I build without cutting myself even once, to places I find first try, without any storms to bum me out on the way, and without pesky customs officials asking for bribes.
Of course, what I look forward to most is to going withersoever the Lamb goes, but He might send me on an epic voyage.....
 
Will there be no injury or will there be perfect healing without infections? It seems for there to be no injuries we will have to have perfect knowledge of all things and execute of our actions perfectly.
 
Jerusalem Blade said:
Hello Ramón @Afterthought,

Could you possibly summarize the preacher's argument on the YouTube video? I don't have the time to spend an hour and fourteen minutes unless I think it worthwhile. Thanks!

Steve
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It has been a while since I listened to the video, so I can only give a generic summary of the argument.

1) He argues that the Bible points us to heaven (the third heaven) as our abode in various ways, e.g., Abraham was looking for a land...not in the earth but a different city (Heb 11:9-16). If he was looking to a renewed earth as his home, then he would not have been a stranger or pilgrim and would not have looked for a heavenly home. If I recall correctly, he also uses 2 Cor 5:1-8, where our home after death is said to be an eternal home in the heavens.

2) If I recall correctly (might not have been he who argued this; might have been Edwards or someone else), he argues that where Christ is, so we will be because of our union with Christ. Christ ascended into heaven and is making our "mansions" there to dwell with him--preparing a place for us--and so heaven is where we will dwell.

3) He answers the major objections (which is probably the key thing here; I think both sides of the debate would agree with the heavenly--as opposed to earthly--orientation of the Bible).

He points out that heaven is a place where our glorified bodies will be and where Christ's glorified body is now. So although heaven will not be the earth, the place will still be in part a material existence.

He argues that the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven in Revelation never actually stays on earth: it is presented to the view of John in his vision--as a bride prepared for her groom--but no word is spoken about the new Jerusalem actually coming down from heaven and resting on earth (as is often assumed); the new Jerusalem is merely said to be shown, and its final dwelling place is not mentioned in that text.

He argues that since heaven is a place of material existence, it would be a physical catastrophe for heaven to literally come down and join with the earth.

So far as the earth being renewed, he agrees that the Bible teaches the earth will be renewed, as will be the heavens. This, however, does not necessarily imply that the earth will be our dwelling place; or that heaven will be our dwelling place; it just means the creation will be renewed. It does leave a question though as to why the earth is renewed if we will not be dwelling there as our home. He states that the Bible does not tell us why, but a possible speculation (provided by Van Mastricht) is that although heaven will be our home, we will be able to visit the earth, just like angels dwell in heaven now but are able to visit the earth.



For my own part, I find the reasoning overall convincing (both here and Jonathan Edwards' reasoning) that heaven (the third heaven; not a renewal of the first or second heaven) is to be our abode and is a material place. I think the argument goes too far in absolutely excluding the possibility of living on a renewed earth when heaven and earth are united, but I do find it compelling that there is not enough in the Bible to conclude absolutely that such will be the case and instead we are to focus on living in a heavenly existence as our home.
 
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Afterthought said:
2) He argues that where Christ is, so we will be. Christ ascended into heaven, and so heaven is where we will dwell.
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The Bible is clear that Jesus is coming back to earth. Does he argue that we will then all go back to the third heaven?
 
Eyedoc84 said:
The Bible is clear that Jesus is coming back to earth. Does he argue that we will then all go back to the third heaven?
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As I clarified in my comment in an edit, I actually don't recall if it was he or Edwards or someone else who made that argument. But the way the argument goes, Christ comes to judge the world but is not said to dwell here, so one cannot argue from Christ's return that the earth is our home. Due to the other considerations about heaven being our home (I added a few more under this consideration), yes, we all go with him to the third heaven (having been resurrected and glorified now) to finally dwell.
 
Afterthought said:
As I clarified in my comment in an edit, I actually don't recall if it was he or Edwards or someone else who made that argument. But the way the argument goes, Christ comes to judge the world but is not said to dwell here, so one cannot argue from Christ's return that the earth is our home. Due to the other considerations about heaven being our home (I added a few more under this consideration), yes, we all go with him to the third heaven (having been resurrected and glorified now) to finally dwell.
Click to expand...

Although I generally reject any Neo-Calvinist downplaying of heaven, whether we live in heaven or on earth, Revelation says that the New Jerusalem comes down to earth, not that we float to heaven.
 
Afterthought said:
He argues that the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven in Revelation never actually stays on earth: it is presented to the view of John in his vision--as a bride prepared for her groom--but no word is spoken about the new Jerusalem actually coming down from heaven and resting on earth (as is often assumed); the new Jerusalem is merely said to be shown, and its final dwelling place is not mentioned in that text.
Click to expand...

So is he actually saying that it comes down to earth only to float back to heaven? If so, that's reading something in the text that isn't there.
 
Thank you, Ramón @Afterthought,

I appreciate your summarizing Rev. Michael Spangler's view (I've already watched over half of his Youtube presentation).

From my vantage he makes some assumptions that are not warranted, first and foremost the materiality of the third Heaven. But first I'll lay some of the foundational understandings of my view.

Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."​
​
Rev 21:1,2,3, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."​

Regarding life on New Earth, in New Jerusalem, and what we might expect there according to the Biblical record. I take it that John, when he wrote, "I...saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven", the vision of New Jerusalem coming down (Rev 21:10 renders the same Greek word, katabainō, descending) is not just as a showpiece for John to merely see and describe – suspended between heaven and earth, and then to return back up – but coming down with a purpose: that the tabernacle or dwelling place of God will be with men.

Spangler's assumption that New Jerusalem in the third Heaven is material as well as spiritual is unwarranted; I touched on this in the second paragraph of post #17 where I said the spirit realm where Christ ascended is a solid realm, in a manner of speaking. We have to be careful here. In Rev 4:2,3 and the vision of the throne and Him who sat on it, is this a photographic reality or a vision using symbolic images? The images of the temple in Revelation, are they symbolic or to be taken literally? In Hebrews 12:22,23,24, the "city of the living God", are we to take that as a literal city – and a literal country, albeit an heavenly country (Heb 11:16) – as Spangler does? The city of God as it is now in the third heaven is certainly substantial, but what that substantiality consists of I hesitate to answer.

The Scripture often speaks of things proleptically (the representation of a thing as existing before it actually does), and it appears that the visions of Revelation, and mentions of future things elsewhere (John 14:2,3, i.e., in His Father's house are many mansions or dwellings He is preparing for us) are in that category.

Another thing: on New Earth, in the global New Jerusalem, which is the corporate redeemed people of God world-wide, where will the throne of God be, is it to be in a particular locale, or is "throne" to be taken figuratively as the rule of Christ as King over all? And the temple, when John writes in Rev 21:22, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it" – does this not mean that the temple of God is actually the Body of Christ, in whom dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9)?

Spangler admits that the view of the third Heaven coming down to be on the New Earth is almost universal among the Reformed these days. It is with reason this is so. Whatever the substantiality of New Jerusalem in the third heaven is now, there shall be that same solidity when it comes down to be upon the glorified earth, but moreso, as the redeemed – who now are but spirits (Heb 12:23) – shall have their glorified physical bodies there (Enoch, Elijah, and possibly Moses Jude 9, excepted).

What, shall the infinite God have His house on a planet? What is His house? It is House of Christ, the fulfillment of the House of Abraham, and the House of David. Why should the Eternal One condescend to so favor and bless we miserable humans? Because we have been transformed into the image of the Son of His love, and He deigned to adopt us in Him, in holiness and majesty.

No literary fantasies can come anywhere near the wonder of this story God has told, and lived Himself, and we have lived with and in Him – despite furious and bloody opposition. We are heading Home – which is Heaven, soon to be located on New Earth, where God will dwell among us in the Person of His eternal Son. When we see Him we will praise Him as we ought.
 
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