reformed trucker
Puritan Board Sophomore
(Reformed gents know how to drop a pretty penny on a library)


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(Reformed gents know how to drop a pretty penny on a library)
I agree that most women's studies are fluffy, boring, or simply not applicable to everyone that may be looking for a study group. There have been times where Men and Women studies were going on at same time and, truth be told, I would have rather been studying what the men were studying. There have been some studies where I just felt like I just didn't fit.
Yes, I would have to agree with this as well....sometimes I do find women's books to be dumbed down. I rarely read any of them anymore, because I don't find myself growing. Probably one of the few women's study books that I find profitable are by Nancy Leigh DeMoss....
Okay, the only ladies I have known that like to discuss theology, I found online (and several have become friends in real life). At most churches, not all, try to lead into any theological or Christian living issue and they either shut down, evaded it with a perky comment, or looked at you like "we're women, we're not supposed to be discussing this.
I agree that most women's studies are fluffy, boring, or simply not applicable to everyone that may be looking for a study group. There have been times where Men and Women studies were going on at same time and, truth be told, I would have rather been studying what the men were studying. There have been some studies where I just felt like I just didn't fit.
Yes, it's a gap that should be worried about. Because guess who is stepping in and trying to fill that gap...yep, you guessed it...Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, and Kay Arthur. Elizabeth George and Nancy Leigh DeMoss are probably the exceptions, but they still focus on "women things" as they ARE women.
My husband and I have discussed theology for years. It's probably been a good portion of our conversations.
I think I'll just happily read what is on my shelves, discuss with my PB, hang out here at the PB and with a few other women online that actually enjoy life beyond manicures.
I wouldn't lump Kay Arthur in with Beth Moore and certainly not Joyce Meyer. Kay Arthur has done some very good Bible studies and an elder told me that she is a member of a reformed church.
Her studies drove me batty. So much focus on memorizing the "symbolic markings" we were supposed to be doing and not enough time taken in actually understanding what was being said. I see a verse or a paragraph and I can actually see a picture in my head. Spend 40min dissecting a single word and I forget where it even fit in with the passage.
All three are annoying to me.
-----Added 5/28/2009 at 09:45:19 EST-----
I think you have a valid point..... I certainly know of many women that are very disinterested with theology. Prior to the Pb, there were only a few women that I knew of that were interested in discussions such as myself. But that is not always the case!
In some cases......I think it is far more difficult for married women to care for their husbands, their children, their homes....and still have time and energy to devote to deep theological study. There are far too many responsibilities today, and it is much easier to read something light. A woman's job in the home never seems to end! So on some level, I think it is much more difficult for women to get involved than men.
I also know many Christians that believe theology is not an appropriate subject for women at all. And it is something that they heavily frown upon. I've had people tell me that I shouldn't be wasting so much time reading the reformers or the puritans....and I think many people assume that women are incapable of that kind of learning! I do agree that the husband should be further along, and he ought to be the one to teach and lead....but I'm not sure that theology is a subject that is completely inappropriate for women to study.
Another reason.....I think many of us are uncertain of how much discussion is permissible. At what point are we correcting and teaching men? Many of us dare not cross that line, so we would much rather avoid deep discussions that would lead us to exercising authority over a man. There are many discussions here on the board ,for example, that I've been very interested in, but I would much rather bow out of....lest I teach a man. So I'll give my input here and there...but I am careful not to enter certain discussions with men. I think that can very well be a concern of many women today!
Thank you. This is just the sort of response I was hoping to elicit. Several others have been helpful too. Lady Flynt (and others), do you think that the Christian sub-culture views women as un-theological? To clarify, I believe that women are just as intelligent and capable as men, yet it seems that any book written specifically for women is intentionally dumbed down. When Christian products are marketed toward women, it never seems to be aimed at the "thinking woman." My experience in both the church and the Christian school movement is that women are expected to concentrate only on those areas which pertain most obviously to daily living, plus memorizing Prov. 31. Do you think that some Christian sub-cultures have actually made it difficult or undesirable to be a theologically inclined woman?
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Edit: By the way, one impetus for this thread was the recent thread about the man changing churches due to doctrine, but it was painful for his wife because she had good relations there and didn't really get the doctrinal issues. Several other men on that thread expressed similar ideas. I recently went through the same process, but my wife understood completely what was going on.
I would say that marketing is marketing. You find "women's stuff" (and you have to admit, women have a lot of "stuff") marketed towards women. Areas like Theology, are for both men and women, so there is not going to be any specific marketing towards women.
Maybe we should suggest it. Can you picture Calvin's Institutes pink floral bound with a snazzy title like, "The Woman's Guide to..." or "Tea With Calvin" or "A Reformed Breakfast Devotional"
You don't find a lot of stuff marketed as "just for men" (except hair colourand a few daddy manuals). Women are the cash machines, men just work for it. (well, as far as marketing is concerned, Reformed gents know how to drop a pretty penny on a library)
Re: the shallowness of women's bible study materials, I have to wonder if there's a simple explanation: do the Reformed traditionally emphasize segregated teaching material, or rather men and women learning together? If this is not a Reformed emphasis, it's little wonder we don't find more "biblically strong" women's Bible Study resources out there.
On a another note, if a woman knows more than her husband/husband-to-be, then that is a good gauge for the man to quicken his step in his biblical learnings! We should all be challenging each other to dig deeper. I think it would be inappropriate (not that anyone is saying this) for the woman to take a halt to her learnings just so her husband could catch up. He should put forth more effort into learning more.
I didn't read all the answers so I might be saying what everyone else has already said. I find that outside of the reformed church most women do not do theology. However, the women inside the reformed church can really give many people a run for their money. I have a woman friend who reads Owen and understands him well.Can't say that I would be that smart...never read him. However, I am looking to enter tnars as soon as my pastor (who has promised me!) sends me my letter of reference.
On a another note, if a woman knows more than her husband/husband-to-be, then that is a good gauge for the man to quicken his step in his biblical learnings! We should all be challenging each other to dig deeper. I think it would be inappropriate (not that anyone is saying this) for the woman to take a halt to her learnings just so her husband could catch up. He should put forth more effort into learning more.
A lot of the younger women at my church frown upon me for my desire to study theology. They say it's not practical. I should study about things of the home (which I do, in addition to studying theology). One is so bold to say that I'm using theology to gain the attention of men. I don't think that's the case and neither do my elders or pastor who love to give me more books to read (even without my asking). However, that stigma remains on me and limits the amount of young friends I have. It seems it's a popular belief among women from the several churches I've attended.
A lot of the younger women at my church frown upon me for my desire to study theology. They say it's not practical. I should study about things of the home (which I do, in addition to studying theology). One is so bold to say that I'm using theology to gain the attention of men. I don't think that's the case and neither do my elders or pastor who love to give me more books to read (even without my asking). However, that stigma remains on me and limits the amount of young friends I have. It seems it's a popular belief among women from the several churches I've attended.
I don't think learning theology is optional, for either the man or the woman, personally.
my husband is a younger Christian
I don't think learning theology is optional, for either the man or the woman, personally.
I really appreciated "In His Grip", "Lady Flynt" and "CMJ'S" and all the wonderful Responses of the women of GOD, and sisters in Christ..thank you for those! lol it's an encouragement, really. I have a question for all though, if your wife or courtmate isn't as into theology as you are, what can you do to maybe spruce up her interest? I mean I know we're NOT in control, it def has to be a work of GOD...but can u guys share an wisdom in this area of what to do or maybe what u did pertaining to this??? I would love to hear from both the men and women on this one..
Well I heard a sermon today with Paul Washer where he said something to the effect of
"Young lady if you are sitting here today, engaged to be married with a man that does not know more scripture than you, you need to brake up and not go through with the wedding"
And not to be labled the shovanist, the Theological responsibility like all other responsibility in the family lies with the man, so I think he should know more theology.
That being said I do not think that woman should know nothing, and men everything, but I think that in the homes where the woman knows the most theology, there is a man that needs to look at his responsabilities.
There are multitudinous reasons and circumstances for women not knowing theology.
There are situations where men intimidate women with their vast theological awareness.
There are many women who are married that trust their DH to both know and to direct the necessary knowledge in the home.
There are single women who for reasons regarding time and availablilty and understanding just find it quite complex to tackle on their own.
I admit that my knowledge and hunger both were shallow until time to retire. Then I promised myself that for the rest of my days my time would be spent knowing God, His word and His great doctrines! This has been the most ultimate and rewarding learning I've ever experienced but mostly what I've learned is how very little I've learned! The vast deeps that are there in the Word are both frightening, enticing, and comforting at the same time! Knowledge brings responsibility and as we learn and grow we are accountable to share this and to encourage others to study those marvelous deep doctrines of grace and cause our soul to soar with Him! Soli deo gloria!
There are many women who are married that trust their DH to both know and to direct the necessary knowledge in the home.
There are many women who are married that trust their DH to both know and to direct the necessary knowledge in the home.
This one stands out:
1) it's an excuse for mental and spiritual laziness.
2) yes, they may trust their husbands in it, but their husbands should be seeing to it that the wife UNDERSTANDS and OWNS it, not just agreeing to it "because he says it's so".
You can't imagine the number of willingly ignorant women that are out there (particularly within various so-called "conservative" or "fundamental" groups) that cannot give testamony (beyond warm fuzzies), can't answer a question (they are all "too difficult"), and don't know WHY in things regarding their faith. Why? "Because we're women, we're supposed to be more concerned about our home and not 'read too much', and because I trust my husband and pastor and they say this is true and that is false". Oh my, how many women are wallowing in a false Christ and a false gospel because of this willful ignorance. It isn't their faith, it's their husband's sayso. They haven't owned it.
The solution, as I see it, is our great efforts to create both an interest and hunger for the Word itself! Many women read about the bible but shy away from actual bible studies as it is truly hard work! Yes, that is theological laziness!
I have a friend that seems to just think in scripture and has a scriptural reply on the tip of her tongue for most any circumstance! I so hunger to get to that place! The memory work is hard, as is the understanding at times but like heaven itself the 'violent will take it by storm' and be repaid for eternity in the blessedness of being with the Savior and learning at His feet!
My mission in conversation is to do my best to create a desire to read His word daily and come to truly know Him through it!
A little booklet I give out often is 'How Readest Thou', by J.C. Ryle and encourages people to read the Word!
2) yes, they may trust their husbands in it, but their husbands should be seeing to it that the wife UNDERSTANDS and OWNS it, not just agreeing to it "because he says it's so".
2) yes, they may trust their husbands in it, but their husbands should be seeing to it that the wife UNDERSTANDS and OWNS it, not just agreeing to it "because he says it's so".
I think I understand this statement. But the fact is that nobody can make anybody understand anything, not to mention making them own it even if they do understand. This implies that the faithfulness of the wife lays on the shoulders of the husband.
I know men who have attempted to train their wives in theology. I've tried to train my own wife. Due to many issues, including rampant migraines and the fact that she's on pain meds all the time, she struggles with any complex thoughts. When I start getting systematic with her I see that deer in the headlights look. And if I press she develops a headache. I've given her things to read. I've assigned her devotions. I read with her and discuss Scripture daily, usually twice a day. Yet she often cannot tie complementary ideas together. I'm sure this happens with men too. But we must be careful not to put responsibility where it doesn't belong. A man is charged with loving, living with understanding, nurturing, cherishing and leading his wife. He's not held responsible if she disobeys or rebels against his efforts.
I think the question presumes the latter idea. Most people, when they think "theology" think about a set of facts. It's not that women are not into theology as much as men. In fact, more women attend Church than men so, properly speaking, there are more women that are into theology than men but the type of theology most women (and more that matter, most men) are into is the "I know because He lives in my heart..." kind of theology.
We are discussing barriers and discouragements to women studying theology, as well as possible helps and solutions. It might be a good time to set some kind of expectations. Here are some things I think a Christian woman (or man) who has been saved for a while should know or be able to articulate:
1. Explain the concept of the Trinity. As long as he or she avoids ancient historical heresies, I would pass.
2. Explain the person of Christ. As long as he or she clearly indicates Jesus was fully God and fully man, I would pass. A Kenotic understanding (Jesus emptied himself of some aspects of his divine nature) would get a fail.
3. Explain the storyline of the Bible in 5 minutes or less. I would expect some sort of creation-fall-restoration-consummation idea, even if those words aren't used. Also, the idea that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is the central event of history. Details about the role of previous ages to prepare for Christ's coming are bonus.
4. Explain the gospel in about 5 minutes. This will require a few things- a decent understanding of God's holiness, man's condemnation for sin, the person and work of Christ for the sinner, the call of repentance and faith, and the necessity of justification by faith alone on the grounds of Christ's imputed righteousness.
5. (At some point), explain in 5 minutes what makes Reformed churches unique. The 5 solas would be sufficient, along with some awareness of historical confessions.
Also, each person should have read through the entire Bible at least once and be faithfully studying the word.
So, to clear up any confusion, I'm not saying that every man or woman needs to be super-theologian. I'm only saying that each Christian should personally understand their faith well enough to articulate it intelligently, particularly to unbelievers and to their own children.