Would this be appropriate for worship

[shackleton]

This comes straight from Isaiah 40:1-4, "Isaiah 40
1Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain."

This is from Handel's Messiah, which is verses taken from the bible and put to music.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhy2SRHqpuQ"]YouTube - "Comfort ye My people" from Händel's Messiah, Hogwood[/ame]

Ignore the fact that it is sung by an individual. My point is, since this is straight from the bible, and inspired, is this wrong? If so why? Would any part of Handel's Messiah be appropriate for worship, since it all comes straight from the inspired bible?

Keep in mind I come from a pentecostal background and I am trying to understand why instruments are wrong or why it is not right to use any inspired passages when put to music.
Thanks

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Wellp, my personal view is that even uninspired psalms are appropriate so long as their content is not out of line with scripture (ie. like the free will song). My reasoning for this is the instruction to sing "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3. I don't think hymns and spiritual songs all just refer to the psalms since psalms are mentioned already. I also don't think psalms set to music is unbiblical since many of the psalms in fact were set to music. Just look at the beginning of some of the psalms they tell us what kinds of instruments were used while the psalm was being sung.

Anywho, I understand other brothers and sisters greatly take offense to this understanding, and will possibly become frustrated and perhaps angry that this is the view I hold. Nevertheless.. from scripture I can't find anything that condemns the use of instruments or singing songs other than the inspired psalms (spiritual songs and hymns) as unbiblical.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

No one should get angry or take offense; and it is evil to surmise anyone would In my humble opinion. There are loads of threads on both the topic of instrumental music in worship and psalmody. I strongly suggest searching those out rather than beginning a new thread that tries to tackle both topics.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

No one should get angry or take offense; and it is evil to surmise anyone would In my humble opinion. There are loads of threads on both the topic of instrumental music in worship and psalmody. I strongly suggest searching those out rather than beginning a new thread that tries to tackle both topics.

I apologize for my surmise. My intentions were not to be evil. I've just encountered some christians who are very hostile to my view. I wasn't referrencing anyone on the PB.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Well everyone can be a jerk some of the time; we try not to encourage it here.

 

[shackleton]

Likewise, would it be wrong to sing the "Song of Moses" that was sung after being freed form Egypt? Does the RPW just apply to the Psalms or could anything that comes from the bible be put to music and sung in worship? Do we have license to take bible verses and put them to music under the RPW? Some of Paul's letters contained verses from hymns which do not appear in the OT.
Maybe I am just beating a dead horse and people are tired of seeing this topic on the PB.

 

[JBaldwin]

Ignore the fact that it is sung by an individual. My point is, since this is straight from the bible, and inspired, is this wrong? If so why? Would any part of Handel's Messiah be appropriate for worship, since it all comes straight from the inspired bible?

Shackleton--

I can't see any reason why this would be inappropriate for worship. Especially since the instrumentation is supporting the text, and the text is from the inspired Word of God. Some may argue that this is a "performance" and not worship. I personally see very little difference between someone getting up and singing the scripture to someone getting up and reading the Scripture. In some cases, it may help drive home the truth of the Scripture more than a simple reading of it. For some congregations, the music itself (because of the classical style) would be a distraction, and in that case, it would be inappropriate for that group.

Ephesians 5:19 says "addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,"

This is what Matthew Henry the Puritan commentator has this to say about this verse:

To sing unto the Lord, v. 19. Drunkards are wont to sing obscene and profane songs. The heathens, in their Bacchanalia, used to sing hymns to Bacchus, whom they called the god of wine. Thus they expressed their joy; but the joy of Christians should express itself in songs of praise to their God. In these they should speak to themselves in their assemblies and meetings together, for mutual edification. By psalms may be meant David's psalms, or such composures as were fitly sung with musical instruments. By hymns may be meant such others as were confined to matter of praise, as those of Zacharias, Simeon, &c. Spiritual songs may contain a greater variety of matter, doctrinal, prophetical, historical, &c. Observe here, (1.) The singing of psalms and hymns is a gospel ordinance: it is an ordinance of God, and appointed for his glory. (2.) Though Christianity is an enemy to profane mirth, yet it encourages joy and gladness, and the proper expressions of these in the professors of it. God's people have reason to rejoice, and to sing for joy. They are to sing and to make melody in their hearts; not only with their voices, but with inward affection, and then their doing this will be as delightful and acceptable to God as music is to us: and it must be with a design to please him, and to promote his glory, that we do this; and then it will be done to the Lord.

Colossians 3:16 says "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God."

Again, Matthew Henry has this to say:

To teach and admonish one another. This would contribute very much to our furtherance in all grace; for we sharpen ourselves by quickening others, and improve our knowledge by communicating it for their edification. We must admonish one another in psalms and hymns. Observe, Singing of psalms is a gospel ordinance: psalmois kai hymnois kai odais—the Psalms of David, I]and spiritual hymns and odes, collected out of the scripture[I], and suited to special occasions, instead of their lewd and profane songs in their idolatrous worship. Religious poesy seems countenanced by these expressions and is capable of great edification. But, when we sing psalms, we make no melody unless we sing with grace in our hearts, unless we are suitably affected with what we sing and go along in it with true devotion and understanding. Singing of psalms is a teaching ordinance as well as a praising ordinance; and we are not only to quicken and encourage ourselves, but to teach and admonish one another, mutually excite our affections, and convey instructions.

Instruments should be allowed, other Scripture is allowed, as well as spiritual songs which teach doctrine and other Scriptural truths. I am advocate of singing Psalms as the Scripture teaches, but I believe these verses also teach that we are to use all scripture as our basis for song. Since teaching and admonishing in preaching includes expounding, I have no problem singing songs and hymns which are deeply rooted in Scriptural truth and especially those which the direct Word of God

JBaldwin

P.S. Nice recording!

 

[reformedman]

thanks for the vid, it is very nice.

 

[Coram Deo]

Let me answer you quickly.... No offense but I am a bit tired from this week of a deep deep debate of the regulative principle with a friend of mine.. so I am a bit wore out by it.....

If I am not mistaken the "Song of Moses" is also Psalm 91? So it is permissable to use the song of moses..... But we do not have a license to put all scripture text to song.... God gave the Psalm as a Hymnbook to which he required it's use....

Other songs that we find within the Old Testament were not songs for worship but national celebrations of deliverance or other form of celebration.....

The Psalms are Prophetic Utterances written by Prophets of God that the Spirit spoke to the Prophets to write the Psalms.... We no longer have Prophets, so the end of song writing have come to an end.... The Psalms are the words of Christ spoken through the Spirit to those Prophets of God to pen for the singing of Christ words by the church of God in all ages....

We are only permitted to Sing Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs by the command of Paul in Col. 3 and Eph. 5 to which is a Tradic Expression that was used within the Hebrew Culture in the context of the day.... The Book of Psalms is really called the Book of Telihem (sp?) which is translated Book of Praise which contain 3 categories of Songs; Psalms, Hymns and Songs. The Categories that Paul uses in Eph. 5 and Col. 3..... The are the words of Christ that we are to dwell within us richly... We have no command in the New Testament to write new songs.....

All the suppose Hymn fragments in the new testament like the song of mary, or the song of simeon, etc are not really hymn fragments and have no support that they are hymn fragments... In fact the scripture says they are spoken.. Only modern commentaries by say they are hymn fragments with no support.........

As per Musical Instruments.... The old testament calls Musical instruments a element of worship that was a shadow for temple worship, only during sacrifices..... When the time of Sacrifices came to an end so did musical instruments.... We have no command in the new testament to use musical instruments... Only to sing making melody in our hearts...... Musical Instruments were all part and worf of Old Covenant Worship which was commanded by God and even the musical instruments were precisely made by the word of God and only instruments used were precisely commanded by God for the temple sacrifices......

Likewise, would it be wrong to sing the "Song of Moses" that was sung after being freed form Egypt? Does the RPW just apply to the Psalms or could anything that comes from the bible be put to music and sung in worship? Do we have license to take bible verses and put them to music under the RPW? Some of Paul's letters contained verses from hymns which do not appear in the OT.
Maybe I am just beating a dead horse and people are tired of seeing this topic on the PB.

 

[bookslover]

...I am trying to understand why instruments are wrong or why it is not right to use any inspired passages when put to music.

It's not wrong to use musical instruments in worship. And it's (at least theoretically) possible to set any biblical text to music - the genealogies might be a little tough, though.

 

[bookslover]

...The old testament calls Musical instruments a element of worship that was a shadow for temple worship, only during sacrifices

Scripture support, please.

...When the time of Sacrifices came to an end so did musical instruments...

Scripture support, please.

 

[Calvibaptist]

These types of threads are almost as numerous and go on almost as long as the Baptism threads. Try reading some of the previous threads on this issue so that we can skip a lot of the same arguments that we have seen over and over again, please.

 

[Ivan]

These types of threads are almost as numerous and go on almost as long as the Baptism threads. Try reading some of the previous threads on this issue so that we can skip a lot of the same arguments that we have seen over and over again, please.

 

[govols]

Since when have there been disagreements with baptism?

 

[AV1611]

My point is, since this is straight from the bible, and inspired, is this wrong? If so why? Would any part of Handel's Messiah be appropriate for worship, since it all comes straight from the inspired bible?

1. Musical instruments should not be used in congregational worship.
2. Only the Psalms are to be sung in congregational worship.

Sola Scriptura and the Regulative Principle of Worship
Musical Instruments in the Public Worship of God
Exclusive Psalmody: A Biblical Defense

 

[AV1611]

...The old testament calls Musical instruments a element of worship that was a shadow for temple worship, only during sacrifices

Scripture support, please.

...When the time of Sacrifices came to an end so did musical instruments...

Scripture support, please.

2 Chronicles 29:25-30 "And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped."

 

[SRoper]

You do raise an interesting question that does not frequently come up in other threads. If we allow that only canonical songs can be sung, what can we sing? Most people who hold to some form of exclusive canonical singing say we can only sing the 150 psalms. However, others say we can sing any song in scripture. Dr. Scott Clark is of this position, and I believe he has even said that not all the psalms are songs (in other words, some of them are not for singing), but I may be mistaken on that point. A third position might be that we can adapt any part of scripture for singing.

 

[shackleton]

My point is, since this is straight from the bible, and inspired, is this wrong? If so why? Would any part of Handel's Messiah be appropriate for worship, since it all comes straight from the inspired bible?

1. Musical instruments should not be used in congregational worship.
2. Only the Psalms are to be sung in congregational worship.

Sola Scriptura and the Regulative Principle of Worship
Musical Instruments in the Public Worship of God
Exclusive Psalmody: A Biblical Defense

Thanks for these links. I have had time to read the first two but not the last one yet. It is a very good synopsys of the RP being rooted in Sola Scriptura, worship in the OT and the use of instuments in both the OT and in worship and history.
Am I correct in my understanding that, instuments were fulfilled in Christ because they were used in the temple in association with the sacrifice and ceased when the sacrifices were finished? Therefore, since the sacrifices have been fulfilled in Christ the need for the use of instruments have ended as well?
The other instances of instruments being, women singing in celebration accompanied by dancing. Only women sang outside the church and only priests played instruments inside the temple, so this is the standard set up according to the RPW. This is the standard we should follow?

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Hi:

Handel's Messiah is one of the greatest musical works in history - if not the greatest. However, I do not think it appropriate for singing in worship because of the extreme difficulty found in singing it. Many of the passsages from Scripture quoted in it were not meant to be sung.

Some try to pose a problem with Exclusive Psalmody by asking whether we can sing the Song of Moses, or, the Magificat of Mary, or, the songs found in the Book of Revelation? However, the difficulty is moreso on the side of "uninspired songs" in worship. Since none of these songs in Scripture can be said to be uninspired where then do they get the idea that singing, "Amazing Grace," "Rock of Ages," "And Can It Be," or, "In the Garden" from these texts?

When those who advocate "uninspired songs" in the worship of God bring up this "difficulty" in Exclusive Psalmody are they not tacitly admitting the EP argument?

Sing the Psalms and sing those other songs found in the Bible, but don't think that this gives you liscence to sing "uninspired songs" in the worship of God. The argument that you are making is closer to EP than it is to "uninspired songs."

Blessings,

-CH

 

[bookslover]

2 Chronicles 29:25-30 "And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped."

This passage merely demonstrates that musical instruments were used in Israel's worship. The passage is descriptive of what God commanded. How does it prove that Christians are not to use musical instruments in their worship?

In fact, one could argue that God commanded that instruments be used in corporate worship, and that that command has nowhere been rescinded in Scripture, since there are no Scripture passages showing that God has commanded the opposite.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

2 Chronicles 29:25-30 "And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped."

This passage merely demonstrates that musical instruments were used in Israel's worship. The passage is descriptive of what God commanded. How does it prove that Christians are not to use musical instruments in their worship?

In fact, one could argue that God commanded that instruments be used in corporate worship, and that that command has nowhere been rescinded in Scripture, since there are no Scripture passages showing that God has commanded the opposite.

Greetings:

The instruments of David were a part of the Levitical and Temple ceremonies. As both the Levitical priesthood and the Temple ceremonies were abrogated by the Priesthood of Christ (Melchizedec) the instruments as they were a part of the ceremonies were abrogated as well.

You don't sacrifice a calf in worship do you?

Grace,

-CH

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Just remain safe. Follow the Confession you hold without taking numerous exceptions to it.

According to the Confession, one would 1) not use instruments, and 2) sing Psalms. So Handel would not be accepted after the Call to Worship. (Remember, the Puritans and Particular Baptists were EP).

 

[shackleton]

In fact, one could argue that God commanded that instruments be used in corporate worship, and that that command has nowhere been rescinded in Scripture, since there are no Scripture passages showing that God has commanded the opposite.

I was kind of wondering the same thing. I learned from the links that instruments both in worship and out, in fact in all of Jewish life, were of such an importance that we should emulate this practice.
ALso, according to the strict defintion of RP, "Whatever is not strictly stated is forbidden." Would this mean that Psalm 150 is a "biblical madate" to use instruments in worship.
What about 1 Corinthians 12 and 14? Paul is instructing the Corinthians in the conduct of the worship service and in so doing tells them how spiritual gifts should be utilized in the service. Now if we are logically deducing, would this not mean that spiritual gifts are appropriate for a worship service? With the right guidance. He never tells them "not" to use gifts or music, but instead tells them how to use them with prudence.
With this frame of mind, "Whatever God did not specifically tell us not to do, we should do." I have heard this argument used for various practices I will not get into now, but could we use this logic to say that, God never told us not to use instruments so they are to be used? Modeling ourselves after how they worhsiped in the OT should we then use instruments? (friendly debate)

 

[JohnOwen007]

(Remember, the Puritans and Particular Baptists were EP).

Nick Needham's in-depth study (in volume 2 of The Westminster Confession into the 21st Century) on the Puritans and EP would call this into question

 

[NaphtaliPress]

(Remember, the Puritans and Particular Baptists were EP).

Nick Needham's in-depth study (in volume 2 of The Westminster Confession into the 21st Century) on the Puritans and EP would call this into question

FYI. There is a short review faulting some of Needham's work in the forthcoming CPJ 3 in the Survey of RPW lit. part 2 which was provided by Matthew Winzer. A more thorough critical look by Rev. Winzer was put off till the 2008 issue, D.V.

 

[JohnV]

I believe that one of the most important rules is that the Bible is both sufficient and clear. What is required is clearly known to all who read it. In other words, 'no assembly required', as far as constructs of reason are concerned. This, to me, is very, very fundamental, and is uncompromisable.

Discussions that we've had on various topics, such as baptism, philosophies, apologetics, the millennium, etc., have been about revealing hidden presuppositions that remain hinderances to understanding the clear and sufficient Word of God. That is, that's how its been for me. It has been no different for matters of worship. For me it has always been that the Bible is simple and clear enough, but it is my sin that hinders me from understanding and following it. I'm certainly not going to be satisfied with replacing my presuppositions with someone else's, not even Calvin's. I believe that Calvin would be in full agreement with me on that score.

It seems to me that we're missing the boat on the RPW as it relates to these kinds of matters. The key elements of worship do not have to do directly with things like choirs, added hymns, solos, music from Handel, and so on; they have to do with a person's humility and submission before a holy God. From this perspective which songs that we sing are circumstance and not element. But songs are certainly an element as well, as God clearly states in His Word that He desires us to sing our praises and worship. Songs can be element and they can be circumstance at the same time. So I think it is too laboured to divide element and circumstance into exclusive lists of things; and has a tendency towards a detrimental effect on the clarity and sufficiency of the Word of God. Our judgment is to ordered by the Word of God as well, so we should use that knowing what the Bible clearly directs.

That's my two cents.

 

[AV1611]

Am I correct in my understanding that, instuments were fulfilled in Christ because they were used in the temple in association with the sacrifice and ceased when the sacrifices were finished? Therefore, since the sacrifices have been fulfilled in Christ the need for the use of instruments have ended as well?

More or less, the point is that the use of instruments was tied to the sacrificial system which Christ put an end to so no sacrifice equals no instruments.

The other instances of instruments being, women singing in celebration accompanied by dancing. Only women sang outside the church and only priests played instruments inside the temple, so this is the standard set up according to the RPW. This is the standard we should follow?

The instances of women dancing and other isntruments beng used were civic celebrations of national deliverance hence they are not of any relevance, they are the equivalent to the bands that (I am guessing here) are used in processions celebrating American Independence on 04/07/????.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

I'm not sure if i should start a new thread on this topic, or whether it has been discussed before. But is there a such thing as a regulative principle of prayer? If not why not? (Was just wondering).

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Here is the Westminster Larger Catechism's answer.

Q176.What rule hath God given for our direction in the duty of prayer?

The whole Word of God is of use to direct us in the duty of praying; (a) but the special rule of direction is that form of prayer, which our Saviour Christ taught his disciples, commonly called the Lord's Prayer. (b)

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Is it possible to pray in the wrong form? (Minus the obvious examples like praying to another god, or saying "booyah" instead of amen, etc.)