Cessationism
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MLCOPE2
Puritan Board Junior
Jake
Puritan Board Senior
SGM is not Reformed, and they even admit this clearly in the overview of the What We Believe section... they just affirm reformed doctrine of soteriology:
"Surrounding this core is an emphasis on sound doctrine. We are committed to a Reformed doctrine of salvation (the doctrines historically known as TULIP), justification by faith alone, and the belief that Scripture is the sole infallible source of doctrine and authority.
Beyond this agreement on the general tenets of Reformed theology, there are areas in which we differ from many Reformed traditions, such as infant baptism, cessationism (the belief that some miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased), and some traditionally Reformed types of church government."
MLCOPE2
Puritan Board Junior
Under 'About Us'
"Beliefs: We are evangelical, Reformed, and charismatic"
I agree that they are not Reformed, however they claim to be reformed (albiet mainly soteriologically) and hold to continuationism. I thought that it might be of value to the op.
MLCOPE2
Puritan Board Junior
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Unoriginalname
Puritan Board Junior
One of the best books I have read on it was by the Lutheran Douglas Judisch, it is out of print but depending where you can look you can grab it for relatively cheap. An Evaluation of the Claims to the Charismatic Gifts by Douglas Judisch
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I agree with Steve. These are probably the best 3 works
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
As SGM has been mentioned in this post I can only say in my experience tongues aren't all that common but would agree with Wayne that it's not unknown. However with folks like SGM who agree with the Wayne Grudem view on the gifts, the gift of "prophecy" is common, encouraged, and practiced.
My former SGM pastor gave me this book:
The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Revised Edition): Wayne Grudem: 9781581342437: Amazon.com: Books
I dont see any of the confessions promoting a modern use of tongues, yet we do have people that are Reformed, like Piper, Grudem, etc., who are not cessationists.
You brought up an awsome fact from the WCF; the revelation is closed...there is no need for revelatory gifts.
You brought up an awsome fact from the WCF; the revelation is closed...there is no need for revelatory gifts.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
The Evangelical Presbyterian Church (which is more or less Reformed depending on Presbytery/local church) has within its ranks a charismatic flavor as well.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
At minimum, "reformed" is:
Doctrines of grace ("five points") + Covenant Theology + Confession
as opposed to, "broadly evangelical" is:
Arminian influenced + Dispensational + No Confession
Some would define "reformed" to include more, i.e. a "high" view of the sacraments, "high" view of the church, infant baptism, etc.
So, being Calvinist leaning (doctrines of grace), but without a binding historic confession (e.g. the Westminster Standards, London Baptist Confession, etc.) is NOT reformed.
It may be heading in that direction (Reformed), but is not there yet.
One other point,
always clarify- cessation of what?
Reformed would say that in any ordinary sense, special revelation OUTSIDE of Scripture has ceased in the completed revelation of the Scripture (sola scriptura). (see Ephesians 2:2, Jude 1:3)
(see Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter I, "Of The Holy Scripture" plus Scripture proofs for summary of doctrine.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/)
That is not to say miracles have ceased, not at all.
It is to say, at least, seeking special revelation outside of the completed canon of Scripture, once delivered unto the end of the world, is not an ordinary means of grace.
Charismatic, pentecostal communions, in our generation, as that term is used in our generation do.
That is contrary to sola scriptura, which is the biblical doctrine of the authority of Scripture.
That's before one even gets to the issue of having a Calvinist soteriology, but not being covenantal, or having an accountable confession of faith.
Doctrines of grace ("five points") + Covenant Theology + Confession
as opposed to, "broadly evangelical" is:
Arminian influenced + Dispensational + No Confession
Some would define "reformed" to include more, i.e. a "high" view of the sacraments, "high" view of the church, infant baptism, etc.
So, being Calvinist leaning (doctrines of grace), but without a binding historic confession (e.g. the Westminster Standards, London Baptist Confession, etc.) is NOT reformed.
It may be heading in that direction (Reformed), but is not there yet.
One other point,
always clarify- cessation of what?
Reformed would say that in any ordinary sense, special revelation OUTSIDE of Scripture has ceased in the completed revelation of the Scripture (sola scriptura). (see Ephesians 2:2, Jude 1:3)
(see Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter I, "Of The Holy Scripture" plus Scripture proofs for summary of doctrine.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/)
That is not to say miracles have ceased, not at all.
It is to say, at least, seeking special revelation outside of the completed canon of Scripture, once delivered unto the end of the world, is not an ordinary means of grace.
Charismatic, pentecostal communions, in our generation, as that term is used in our generation do.
That is contrary to sola scriptura, which is the biblical doctrine of the authority of Scripture.
That's before one even gets to the issue of having a Calvinist soteriology, but not being covenantal, or having an accountable confession of faith.
Do the confessions merely say that the gifts of the Spirit were not present visibly in the church at that time, or does it say that they will never be present in the future? My understanding is the former, but perhaps I'm wrong. To say that they were not present at that time, when the confessions were written, leaves their reappearance an open question. For those who are not preterist, it's hard to read Revelation without believing that there will be prophecy, signs, and wonders during the end times.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Extra biblical revelation through I Cor. 12 spiritual gifts, e.g. existed in a capacity where the church was without the completed foundation of the Christian faith that was once delivered (Jude 1:3), and built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:2).
Note that virtually every New Testament book is connected to an Apostle, an eyewitness of Christ, with a special foundational commission for the church (being without the full revelation of God by Scripture). The Apostle Paul notes his position as the last apostle.
That is not true today of anyone claiming the office (of Apostle), nor is the Word of God incomplete.
We can't say that it is not possible the I Cor. 12 revelatory gifts cannot happen again. But, implicitly, because of sola scriptura, does say the Scripture fulfills the former role of those gifts. Yes, God can do a miracle and make someone speak in an unknown tongue and then someone interpret it to a known tongue. It's possible, as a miracle. But, in any ordinary sense, the Scripture being complete has completed the purpose and now Christians are commanded to seek God's revealed will through His Word, the only Special revelation He has given until the end of this world.
I'm not sure this has to do with what is termed "preterism," which has to do with the second coming.
Interpreting Revelation is difficult, even Mr. Calvin did not write a commentary on it for us. However, if you see Revelation as a sweep of redemptive history over the ages for the church (persecution and all), it includes the end when Christ returns as judge, sin ends and eternity begins. But much of it is about the trials and tribulations, and overcoming of God's people through the ages, until He returns.
God being the miracle worker, not pentecostal/charismatic communions claiming extra-biblical revelation after His Word has been delivered until the end of the age.
Speaking of Revelation, the special revelation of God there specifically condemns those who claim to be apostles (i.e. have apostolic authority of signs and wonders, to receive the inspired Scripture) but are not:
Modern day believers need to take note of the Spirit's speaking through Scripture (Revelation 1-3) to the seven churches.
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Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
One other way to look at this from a biblical perspective:
The ordinary means of grace for the Christian has been since the Apostolic era the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture. (NOT by special revelation of an unknown tongue to one person, and interpretation of an unknown tongue to another).
The authority the Apostles had was amply demonstrated to establish the church until the end of the world.
Claims of modern day persons who at best are ignorant of God's doctrine,
at worst false prophets, notwithstanding.
Neither is acceptable as rule for faith and practice.
The ordinary means of grace for the Christian has been since the Apostolic era the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture. (NOT by special revelation of an unknown tongue to one person, and interpretation of an unknown tongue to another).
The authority the Apostles had was amply demonstrated to establish the church until the end of the world.
Claims of modern day persons who at best are ignorant of God's doctrine,
at worst false prophets, notwithstanding.
Neither is acceptable as rule for faith and practice.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
By the way, the terms "cessationism," and "continuationism," are made up terms, imposed usually by those who do not fully grasp the underlying biblical principles or doctrine.
The Word established, not really ceased anything. The Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture continues until the end of the world for the benefit of God's people.
And the Word of God is at the center of God's plan for His people. Indeed His revealed will for all creatures who will be judged according to and by it, make no mistake.
The common law maxim applies, "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
The Word established, not really ceased anything. The Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture continues until the end of the world for the benefit of God's people.
And the Word of God is at the center of God's plan for His people. Indeed His revealed will for all creatures who will be judged according to and by it, make no mistake.
The common law maxim applies, "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
Vern Poythress on the Charismatic Issue
You might want to read the three scholary pieces here by Vern Poythress, Prof at WestminsterTS .
You might want to read the three scholary pieces here by Vern Poythress, Prof at WestminsterTS .
Both continuationists and cessationists use the same passages to prove their point. My question is the wording of the Westminster whatever. Does subscribing to that obligate one to believe that there is no continuing revelation in 2013 and there will not be immediately before the second coming? Or does it merely obligate one to believe that there was no continuing revelation at the time that the confessions were written? If it is the latter, then the statement is an empirical observation, not an interpretation of scripture. It leaves continuationism as an open question.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
.
It's not really a matter of the Confession obligating one to believe, it's a matter of a summary of the doctrine of Scripture confessed, and accountable.
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