Since tomorrow is Halloween, can you recommend a good Puritan authored book on the subject?

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

Personally, I do not celebrate it at all. Even if the modern “fun” kids celebration seems innocent, its pagan, devilish and even Catholic history is enough for me to shun the day. I do have a little candy incase some kids come by, don’t want to be “that guy” either.

But since the Puritans lived in a time when the actual holiday was still openly pagan, what is a good book to read on the subject through their eyes?

 

[Tom Hart]

I am not sure about your history here. Halloween as it is celebrated today is a very recent development, quite disconnected from its Celtic pagan origins. The Puritans are chronologically removed from what we call Halloween by a space of several centuries.

Maybe you are referring to All Hallow's Eve or All Saints' Eve on the Roman Catholic calendar. You're unlikely to find anyone celebrating that at all.

 

[timfost]

95 theses.

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

I am not sure about your history here. Halloween as it is celebrated today is a very recent development, quite disconnected from its Celtic pagan origins. The Puritans are chronologically removed from what we call Halloween by a space of several centuries.

Maybe you are referring to All Hallow's Eve or All Saints' Eve on the Roman Catholic calendar. You're unlikely to find anyone celebrating that at all.

It was my understanding that the modern celebration did not come about till the late 1800’s or so, and still, the practices of dressing up and pumpkin carvings do have pagan origins.

Or I am just completely mistaken, which is quite possible.

 

[Tom Hart]

It was my understanding that the modern celebration did not come about till the late 1800’s or so, and still, the practices of dressing up and pumpkin carvings do have pagan origins.

Or I am just completely mistaken, which is quite possible.

I can recommend an informative article, which was shared on the PB last year.
https://calvinistinternational.com/2018/10/03/what-should-christians-think-about-halloween/

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

It was my understanding that the modern celebration did not come about till the late 1800’s or so, and still, the practices of dressing up and pumpkin carvings do have pagan origins.

Or I am just completely mistaken, which is quite possible.

It depends on who you ask. There is no clear evidence as far as I know. I see it as a matter of conscience. Free candy for the kids? Sounds good to me!

 

[B.L.]

Personally, I do not celebrate it at all.

I do have a little candy in case some kids come by, don’t want to be “that guy” either.

My family is in the same boat. We've never dressed the kids up and gone out to "trick or treat". I wish more Christians avoided it. I see nothing redeeming about the night.

I used to not want to be "that guy" and turn the porch light off, but that's been our modus operandi now once it gets dark.

We have rain in the forecast all day today (10/31) and my son actually cheered and got excited yesterday upon hearing Halloween might get rained out. Last night my wife got on the facebook page for our subdivision and saw a bunch of chatter about the neighborhood rescheduling Halloween for Friday instead since it will be dry.

To me it seems like people have grown increasingly obsessive about celebrating the day. For example, the lobby of my workplace has a bunch of orange and black streamers, a dozen or more giant black spiders, spider webs, and human skulls decorating it...I took my daughter to her ballet class on Monday night and it was apparently Halloween costume night where the instructor and students arrived in their costumes (must not have gotten the memo)...and we can't enter a restaurant or store without being bombarded by something Halloween themed, etc. I find it all quite amusing.

At any rate...

 

[alexandermsmith]

I can recommend an informative article, which was shared on the PB last year.
https://calvinistinternational.com/2018/10/03/what-should-christians-think-about-halloween/

If the writer of this article can point me to where we have Biblical example or permission to dress up as witches and other monsters and to celebrate a day devoted to darkness and the dark arts I would be most interested. There is nothing about Halloween that I can see that is compatible with Scripture. Whatever its origins how is it Christian to dress up and pretend to be someone other than who one is, never mind about the sorts of things people actually dress up as? Going around threatening to perform a prank on someone unless they give you treats? Halloween is to be repudiated by Christians.

 

[Tom Hart]

If the writer of this article can point me to where we have Biblical example or permission to dress up as witches and other monsters and to celebrate a day devoted to darkness and the dark arts I would be most interested. There is nothing about Halloween that I can see that is compatible with Scripture. Whatever its origins how is it Christian to dress up and pretend to be someone other than who one is, never mind about the sorts of things people actually dress up as? Going around threatening to perform a prank on someone unless they give you treats? Halloween is to be repudiated by Christians.

Oh, finally! I was getting worried we might not have a Halloween dispute this year.

 

[alexandermsmith]

Oh, finally! I was getting worried we might not have a Halloween dispute this year.

Not looking for any dispute. Just giving my two pence worth.

 

[Tom Hart]

I don't celebrate Halloween. The most I do is carve a pumpkin with my son. That's clean fun. Also, pumpkin seeds roasted with butter and salt is a delicious treat. I give sweets to my students. I'm aware that as I live in Asia I am very far away from the Halloween heartland. In general you don't see the Halloween-themed excesses here.

I will not have anything to do with the creepy stuff. Halloween used to be a lot more innocent. It's getting worse. I don't understand all these adults getting so involved. Weird. They need to grow up.

The best reason I can think of not to celebrate Halloween is that it might offend a Christian brother. The next best reason is the increasing creepiness and weirdness of the event. Having no participation in the day can indeed be a way to witness to one's neighbours. It really depends on circumstances.

But, still, I think it's helpful to distinguish the different sides of Halloween. First of all, what we today call Halloween is not pagan in origin. If it were, it would be clearly problematic for Christians. But the histotical fact is that it's not pagan, and as such the matter is less clear cut than many would like it to be.

There is an innocent side to Halloween, and there is a darker side. It's the grown-ups making it weird.

Repudiating Halloween need not mean that we throw it all out. Pumpkin carving and candy, I think, is fine. If kids want to dress up as superheroes, sure. Keep it clean and fun.

 

[Tom Hart]

a day devoted to darkness and the dark arts

There's the rub.

There is nothing about Halloween that I can see that is compatible with Scripture.

Nothing? Pumpkin carving? Roasted pumpkin seeds? Mulled apple cider?

Whatever its origins how is it Christian to dress up and pretend to be someone other than who one is, never mind about the sorts of things people actually dress up as?

I'm half with you here. I don't object to a kid dressing up as a superhero or a knight or some such. A lot of worse stuff goes on, to be sure.

Going around threatening to perform a prank on someone unless they give you treats?

Really? Who does this?

Halloween is to be repudiated by Christians.

If only it were that simple. As I said earlier, it depends.

 

[Deleted member 9611]

Recent sermon on the topic: tinysa.com/sermon/1020192120254010

 

[alexandermsmith]

Nothing? Pumpkin carving? Roasted pumpkin seeds? Mulled apple cider?

In and of themselves these things would be fine but to what end are people carving pumpkins? What is the association? That is what makes it something to be avoided.

Really? Who does this?

It's called "trick or treat". The threat is there. I understand this is meant, in the most part, in jest but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to participate in. And it's also true that plenty of pranks, some quite mean spirited, are performed on Halloween.

 

[Grant]

For me Halloween seems more difficult to address than Easter and Christmass, which we do our best to avoid other than eating with family and gifts. Perhaps, regarding Halloween, it is because even when I was growing up, it was about dressing up, getting loads of free candy, trading candy like stocks, and watching scary movies. However, as I have gotten older (Physically & Spiritually), it seems "celebrating and honoring" the dead is a common theme for Halloween no matter what century of it's history. I do not think this is healthy and I think the Westminster Standards steer us away from this type of thinking and practice.

In years past, we have let the girls dress up as some character (like a ninja turtle) and go get candy in our subdivision. This year will be the first year we "sit out" completely. It did feel strange explaining the "why" to my 5 year old, who was admittedly very excited to go out. We have also stayed indoors in years past and given out candy along with a Church Brochure that gives information about our Church. But again, we will be sitting out this year.

P.S. We usually do buy pumpkins and let our girls paint them in the first 2 weeks of October. I am still wrestling with Church's organized celebration of Reformation Day

 

[Tom Hart]

In and of themselves these things would be fine but to what end are people carving pumpkins? What is the association? That is what makes it something to be avoided.

The point is appreciated. I think the degree of observance depends on context.

It's called "trick or treat". The threat is there. I understand this is meant, in the most part, in jest but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to participate in.

Ask most people who say, "Trick or treat." They aren't even aware there's a trick involved. It's just something they say. I know that as a little kid I had no clue what I was saying. "Open sesame" opens a door, "trick or treat" gets you candy.

As I got a bit older it meant performing a trick like juggling or something. I never had any conception of a mean trick.

And it's also true that plenty of pranks, some quite mean spirited, are performed on Halloween.

Very true. Where I'm from "Devil's night" (October 30th) was always bad. Police were kept very busy with bad teenagers.

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

Al Mohler was helpful this morning on the briefing; seems like what we once may have passed as innocent fun may but much more serious in an ever increasing pagan culture:

https://albertmohler.com/2019/10/31/briefing-10-31-19

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

Let’s see if I can get this discussion to go a little deeper.

Leviticus 19:28 (KJV 1900): Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14:1 (KJV 1900): Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

I’m these verses the Israelites are commanded not to change their appearance for the dead, either to worship them or to hide from them, I hold to the latter explanation.

We also know that the pagan roots of Halloween are based in the idea of changing ones appearance to hide from the dead. Is this not disturbing and should it not be avoided by the faithful?

 

[Tom Hart]

Leviticus 19:28 (KJV 1900): Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14:1 (KJV 1900): Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

These are references to pagan practices. Baal worship, for instance, involved a lot of self-mutilation.

We also know that the pagan roots of Halloween are based in the idea of changing ones appearance to hide from the dead. Is this not disturbing and should it not be avoided by the faithful?

Perhaps too much is made of the Samhain connection.

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

These are references to pagan practices. Baal worship, for instance, involved a lot of self-mutilation.

So as long as it is not done in the name of Baal it is fine?

Perhaps too much is made of the Samhain connection.

It seems to me that there is more than enough historical evidence to show that the modern practice evolved from Samhain paganism.

 

[CasualWestminsterEnjoyer]

how is it Christian to dress up and pretend to be someone other than who one is

If Beth Moore can dress up as a preacher, I should be able to dress up as a wookie.

 

[Tom Hart]

So as long as it is not done in the name of Baal it is fine?

What?

It seems to me that there is more than enough historical evidence to show that the modern practice evolved from Samhain paganism.

"Evolved from" is misleading. "Was invented with some basis upon" would be fairer. I can tell you that trick-or-treaters do not imagine themselves to be hiding from the dead (or evil spirits, as in Irish paganism), nor have they ever done so.

 

[Tom Hart]

I understand the impulse to reject Halloween entirely. I was very nearly there myself. I am still not a fan. But I would warn anyone proceed with caution. Be careful of taking too simplistic a view. And be careful, especially, of reading Halloween into the pages of Holy Scripture. Look at the historical facts, look at the recent development of Halloween, look at how it is done today. Trick-or-treating (which I do not like because it is just unhealthy) does not involve threats to those who do not offer candy. Halloween is not a celebration of the dead. And, for the record, neither was Samhain. (There're frankly a lot of mix-ups here.)

If your conscience objects to Halloween, by all means, have nothing to do with it! But take care before you judge others' participation in the day.

 

[My Pilgrim Way]

I don't celebrate Halloween. The most I do is carve a pumpkin with my son. That's clean fun. Also, pumpkin seeds roasted with butter and salt is a delicious treat. I give sweets to my students. I'm aware that as I live in Asia I am very far away from the Halloween heartland. In general you don't see the Halloween-themed excesses here.

I will not have anything to do with the creepy stuff. Halloween used to be a lot more innocent. It's getting worse. I don't understand all these adults getting so involved. Weird. They need to grow up.

The best reason I can think of not to celebrate Halloween is that it might offend a Christian brother. The next best reason is the increasing creepiness and weirdness of the event. Having no participation in the day can indeed be a way to witness to one's neighbours. It really depends on circumstances.

But, still, I think it's helpful to distinguish the different sides of Halloween. First of all, what we today call Halloween is not pagan in origin. If it were, it would be clearly problematic for Christians. But the histotical fact is that it's not pagan, and as such the matter is less clear cut than many would like it to be.

There is an innocent side to Halloween, and there is a darker side. It's the grown-ups making it weird.

Repudiating Halloween need not mean that we throw it all out. Pumpkin carving and candy, I think, is fine. If kids want to dress up as superheroes, sure. Keep it clean and fun.

Aren’t superheroes just little gods that save the world?

 

[Tom Hart]

Aren’t superheroes just little gods that save the world?

Er...

 

[Pergamum]

The thing is, can we really say, "I don't celebrate Halloween...I just carve a pumpkin." Or "I don't celebrate Halloween, but I dress up and trick or treat..."

In the past I thought we had to shun all activities related to the holiday, because any participation meant precisely that....participation.

But it is really hard to see anything wrong with carving a pumpkin, or even dressing in a costume. Especially for kids. They all want to dress up and play.

I know in the village the tribal people there have feared witches and walking-dead demons for generations. Now they play a game of tag they call witch-tag. It seems a pleasant form of mockery to my ears. Instead of participation in darkness, it is a sign of having conquered it and they have relegated it to the realm of silly games.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

What?

"Evolved from" is misleading. "Was reinvented with some basis upon" would be fairer. I can tell you that trick-or-treaters do not imagine themselves to be hiding from the dead (or evil spirits, as in Irish paganism), nor have they ever done so.

I agree. A playful innocent recognition of a day with candy, innocent costumes, and fun activities for Christian families shouldn't be viewed as participating with demons and the dead. People definitely do cross the line though, and they should be careful with how they participate.

To me this seems like a stereotypical over-generalization. Almost comparable to saying "O you're a Christian, therefore you must be participating in the Roman Catholic practices."

 

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

What?

I took your post to mean that because that law was referring to Baal worship and mutilation that it does not apply to other pagan practices. I am making a general equity application, saying that just because it is not in the name of Baal hiding from spirits by changing outward appearance it is still as evil.

"Evolved from" is misleading. "Was reinvented with some basis upon" would be fairer. I can tell you that trick-or-treaters do not imagine themselves to be hiding from the dead (or evil spirits, as in Irish paganism), nor have they ever done so.

I guess this is where the real rub is. If a celebration has pagan roots, but has changed over time does that mean it no longer has the evil imbedded in it? I would say it does, evil with a new face is still evil.

Trick or treaters may not realize the danger of what they are doing, but we know that our war is in the spiritual realm, and I for one will not take that lightly.

 

[Tom Hart]

I took your post to mean that because that law was referring to Baal worship and mutilation that it does not apply to other pagan practices. I am making a general equity application, saying that just because it is not in the name of Baal hiding from spirits by changing outward appearance it is still as evil.

You misunderstood me. Of course all pagan practices are evil! I just think you are reading those passages wrongly, with an anti-Halloween bias.

I guess this is where the real rub is. If a celebration has pagan roots, but has changed over time does that mean it no longer has the evil imbedded in it?

A very worthy question.

I would say it does, evil with a new face is still evil.

I wonder how far you would take this. (What about Classical or Chinese philosophy, for instance?)

Trick or treaters may not realize the danger of what they are doing, but we know that our war is in the spiritual realm, and I for one will not take that lightly.

But you will still give them candy? With respect, that hardly seems consistent.

 

[Grant]

Halloween is not a celebration of the dead.

Tom,

I am not sure of your current cultural context, but in the States it is clear that this time of year celebrates the dead in more than a few aspects. Walk into any store or turn to any TV channel and it becomes extremely clear that a large part of the holiday, even for our modern society is obsessed with death, murder, superstition, and witchcraft. Sure there might be morally neutral things involved, but there is clearly an aspect that IS in fact a celebration of the dead. A denial of this might make me think one has lost their physical eye sight. Al Mohler did a decent job explaining some of the cultural dangers. Take a listen if you haven't.

View attachment 6363

Something tells me this is a favorite meme of yours this time of year