Abraham Piper

[arapahoepark]

Can you please explain what pretentions are in this context? Thanks!

It trends toward a legalistic mindset with little room for failure.

Per the OP: its also tragic that the stupid TikTok platform actually persuades people.

 

[lynnie]

As Tim Keller says, rough paraphrase, when somebody tells him they are having doubts about the Christian faith, he says "who are you sleeping with".

I've known a couple apostates and quite a few "backsliders" and the one common thing with all of them is sexual immorality. Abe Piper appears to be just one more. Tragic.

 

[RobertPGH1981]

Yes. The audacity of this man starting a ministry based on character! He needs to sit in the pew and hear the Word of God, not teach it or preach it.

So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?

 

[Stillwaters]

So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?

To be restored is to say they were once of pure doctrine and fell, yes? But when someone falls in a terribly bad way then how can one know there ever really existed a pure state to be restored to? Isn't this more like a "carnal christian" scenario of someone who likely never had true saving faith but was a concealer of unbelief? (If the latter then of course God could still save him. While there is breath there is hope).

 

[No one]

To be restored is to say they were once of pure doctrine and fell, yes? But when someone falls in a terribly bad way then how can one know there ever really existed a pure state to be restored to? Isn't this more like a "carnal christian" scenario of someone who likely never had true saving faith but was a concealer of unbelief? (If the latter then of course God could still save him. While there is breath there is hope).

I am interested to know as well. What if the opposite is true and they did have a pure state at the start?

 

[Stillwaters]

I am interested to know as well. What if the opposite is true and they did have a pure state at the start?

If that is the case then wouldn't the Biblical teachings about God chastising His own, and in worse circumstances God disciplining His own, and more severe then Church discipline, and then in the most severe cases even having His own excommunicated & turned over to Satan for a time be applicable?

All of salvation is monergistic, and certainly this includes the preservation & perseverance of the saints.

Though what evidence of true saving faith existed in the previous circumstances?

And how bad is the state of being "back-slidden" from a pure state if true?

Whatever the case (and only God knows for certain) ==> the current state of their souls is terrifying and dreadful.

Just thinking about these things should cause us all to tremble!!! But then giving words to them in this thread should drive us to our knees, and even to our faces flat on the ground begging God to guide and keep us, and to save them.

 

[No one]

If that is the case then wouldn't the Biblical teachings about God chastising His own, and in worse circumstances God disciplining His own, and more severe then Church discipline, and then in the most severe cases even having His own excommunicated & turned over to Satan for a time be applicable?

All of salvation is monergistic, and certainly this includes the preservation & perseverance of the saints.

Though what evidence of true saving faith existed in the previous circumstances?

And how bad is the state of being "back-slidden" from a pure state if true?

Whatever the case (and only God knows for certain) ==> the current state of their souls is terrifying and dreadful.

Just thinking about these things should cause us all to tremble!!! But then giving words to them in this thread should drive us to our knees, and even to our faces flat on the ground begging God to guide and keep us, and to save them.

Informative and thankyou for your detailed response. Yes it is a scary thing. This very thing happened to my former best friend but God is gracious of course.

 

[Rom]

So this brings up an interesting question and I would be interested in your insight. What timeline and evidence must be observed to restore somebody into full time ministry as a Pastor or ministry leader?

Repeated scandalous moral failings such as Sproul Jr. has displayed violates the basic requirements for the office of elder - whether a teaching elder or ruling elder. He has not been one "blameless/above reproach" and "having a good report with them outside". That does not disqualify one from being a Christian, of course (provided that the sin is repented of). But it does disqualify one for ministry.

But at the end of the day - it is a presbytery that ordains and holds the credentials of men (1 Timothy 4:14) and so it must be a presbytery and not the individual man that determines whether he is suitable to be restored for office. This independent spirit on display is especially a dangerous one for men who have had serious moral failings in the past. But in today's climate - men like Driscoll, Sproul Jr., and Tchividjian can just set up shop whenever and wherever they wish.

 

[RobertPGH1981]

But at the end of the day - it is a presbytery that ordains and holds the credentials of men (1 Timothy 4:14) and so it must be a presbytery and not the individual man that determines whether he is suitable to be restored for office.

I think this is key since its not that he may not have been reinstated but its that he went off course on his own. Very dangerous for somebody who was disqualified per scripture. Thanks for the update!

 

[zoeenglishministry]

does the drill and practice approach towards children run them away from religion?

Hi Anna,

I thought it might help to hear an "alternative" perspective: first, I can't imagine pastor Piper's heartache when he thinks of his son. Of the responses I've read here, no one has really focused on the reality of pain that our brother/father in the faith must be suffering daily because of Abraham's decisions. So before we insert any assertions, I think it wise to mourn with those who mourn and pray for pastor Piper and pray for Abraham.

Granted, this is PB and the theological weight of reprobation leads many to often dehumanize men and women who are still, Lord-willing, on their journey to faith and belief. So I also mourn the fact that so many have discounted Abraham with such resolve. Watching a few of his videos, I hear a lot of anger. I hear a lot of pain. And it makes me wonder why he so publicly came back to the faith only to walk away again? Such a decision can't be simple, nor easy. So there is clearly a story that we don't know -- and a story that isn't ours to know.

As such, I really don't think we should be using Abraham's story to answer the question, "does the drill/practice approach towards children run them away from religion?" That is, in my opinion, really not what we should be taking away from this whole story. We should walk away mourning and prayerful, humbled and even more committed to discipling our children with patience, love, care, wisdom, discernment, and a deep, deep, deep dependency on Christ.

Blessings.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

I think saying you hate Christianity because your parents made you memorize scripture when you were little is akin to saying you hate your parents because they made you obey when you didn't want to. It's just foolishness. It's an excuse from a rebellious, unregenerate mind. I memorize scripture with my children because it's a privilege, because it's the words of Life, because God speaks to us through it and without it we cannot live.

 

[Minh]

What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?

For others, Mr. Piper’s pedigree is proof that ex-Christians should not be dismissed as people who were never really committed in the first place. “One of the common refrains is that these people were never Christian,” said Blake Chastain, who popularized the term “exvangelical” when he named his podcast in 2016. “But the people who leave over these issues are the people who took it seriously. They were the youth group kids who were on fire for God.”

 

[Andrew35]

What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?

Heard this a lot, especially from apostates: my sincerity + enthusiasm = "real Christianity."

It's pretty specious, if you ask me. Or rather, I guess it follows of you don't believe in spiritual realities. In that case, what outside of group affiliation and sincerity could possible identify you with a religious system?

 

[retroGRAD3]

What are your thoughts on this paragraph from the linked New York Times article in the original post?

The bible tells us they were never of us. That is the final word.

 

[De Jager]

Judas sat under good preaching and teaching. He lacked a spirit wrought faith - as such, his own sinful nature choked out any growth.

It looks like the same is true for Abraham Piper.