Question About Prayer

[Don Kistler]

I'm curious as to what you folks think about this. My grandson is in the hospital and his parents asked for prayer, obviously. "Get as many people praying as you can think of to ask." My question is this: Does it matter if a thousand people pray for something as opposed to just one or two? Does the number of people praying increase the chance of the request being answered?

I think it's great if a congregation comes together to pray for a covenant child (he's only 4 weeks old). But will that change anything?
Is the thinking that if "the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much," then "the fervent prayer of many righteous people availeth more?"

I'm looking forward to seeing what my brothers and sisters here on the PB have to say.

Don Kistler

 

[JennyGeddes]

This is a great question and I look forward to reading the answers you receive.
I also am praying for your little grandson.

 

[Taylor]

I would give a general answer of "no." I have two reasons for saying this. First, prayer doesn't change anything. God's decree is settled forever from all eternity. Prayer is an act of submission, not magic. (I know you know this, of course.) Second, Jesus said that the Gentiles "think that they will be heard because of their many words" (Matt. 6:7). Would it not then follow that it is equally as "Gentile-like" to think that we will be heard because of our many people praying? I think so. Now, could God use a large group of people praying to better demonstrate his glory and goodness to his people and to unbelievers watching? Sure. But prayer is not a secret power that becomes stronger with greater numbers.

 

[Pergamum]

yes.

God has ordained the means as well.

 

[Christopher Robin]

Prayer is commanded; intercessory prayer is commanded, and as Pergamum has said, God has ordained the means as well as the outcome.

 

[py3ak]

Having many people praying is a blessing because then each one can say, "God answered my prayer." People agreeing in prayer is also a nice instance of unity, which is pleasing to God. But prayer is never a matter of calculating percentages, so one can't say "Only three people prayed for me, that gives me a 25% chance of getting what I want out of this prayer."

 

[Ed Walsh]

First, prayer doesn't change anything. God's decree is settled forever from all eternity.

Hi Taylor,

I think that your "first principle" is saying too much, or maybe too little. If all you are saying is that "God's decree is settled forever from all eternity," then, of course, you are correct. But if you are saying in a broader sense that "prayer doesn't change anything," then you are contradicting probably 95% or more of what the Bible has to say about prayer. What you state as an absolute is only true in connection with God's secret will. But our everyday thoughts are to be governed by God's revealed will. And according to His revealed will almost everything stands or falls by the prayers of God's people.

In a paper by R. C. Sproul - Does Prayer Change God’s Mind? Sproul opened with the following:

Does prayer make any difference? Does it really change anything? Someone once asked me that question, only in a slightly different manner: “Does prayer change God’s mind?” My answer brought storms of protest. I said simply, “No.” Now, if the person had asked me, “Does prayer change things?” I would have answered, “Of course!”​

Of course, this is a great mystery. But it is a mystery that is taught from Genesis to the Revelation. (You must know what I am talking about)
Did God have an exact date and time for the destruction of Jerusalem? Of course, He did.
But of that event, Jesus taught his followers to "Pray that [their] flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath." (Matthew 24:20)
Even such events as the timing of the Lord's return can be "hastened" by the Godly lives and prayers of His people.

II Peter 3:11-12​

Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?​

I could add dozens--no, probably hundreds of teachings and examples of God responding to the prayers of His people. (and sometimes refusing to even hear their prayers)
But I have strayed somewhat off-topic.

As to the question(s) in this thread,
I do agree with your "Second principle" and hate the mindset that seems to think, "If I can just get enough people praying, the odds will increase of getting what I want from God."

A pet peeve of mine has made me a little cynical about many (probably 99.9%) of the public requests for prayer because they are almost always limited to health concerns. Again, I could go on, but you must know what I am talking about.

Thanks for listening,

Ed

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I think the answer to your question is found in this fact: The decrees of God are, his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.—Shorter Catechism, Q. 7.

I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.—Isaiah 46:9,10​

​

The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.—Psalm 33:11​

​

I find this hymn a good example of this truth experimentally applied...

God moves in a mysterious way​

His wonders to perform;​

He plants his footsteps in the sea,​

And rides upon the storm.​

​

Deep in unfathomable mines​

Of never-failing skill​

He treasures up his bright designs,​

And works his sovereign will.​

​

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;​

The clouds ye so much dread​

Are big with mercy, and shall break​

In blessings on your head.​

​

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,​

But trust him for his grace;​

Behind a frowning providence​

He hides a smiling face.​

​

His purposes will ripen fast,​

Unfolding every hour;​

The bud may have a bitter taste,​

But sweet will be the flow'r.​

​

Blind unbelief is sure to err,​

And scan his work in vain.​

God is his own interpreter,​

And he will make it plain.​

​

—William Cowper​

 

[hLuke]

I think the answer to your question is found in this fact: The decrees of God are, his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.—Shorter Catechism, Q. 7.

I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.—Isaiah 46:9,10​

​

The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.—Psalm 33:11​

​

I find this hymn a good example of this truth experimentally applied...

God moves in a mysterious way​

His wonders to perform;​

He plants his footsteps in the sea,​

And rides upon the storm.​

​

Deep in unfathomable mines​

Of never-failing skill​

He treasures up his bright designs,​

And works his sovereign will.​

​

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;​

The clouds ye so much dread​

Are big with mercy, and shall break​

In blessings on your head.​

​

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,​

But trust him for his grace;​

Behind a frowning providence​

He hides a smiling face.​

​

His purposes will ripen fast,​

Unfolding every hour;​

The bud may have a bitter taste,​

But sweet will be the flow'r.​

​

Blind unbelief is sure to err,​

And scan his work in vain.​

God is his own interpreter,​

And he will make it plain.​

​

—William Cowper​

Cowper's hymn is a perfect example; for he wrote it shortly after he had a depressive breakdown, and thereafter because of His illness became convinced for the remainder of his life that God had destined him to destruction.
Doubtless many righteous and godly men would have been praying for his recovery, but God always has a better plan, for us, for His people.
Little did Cowper know that he and his mate John Newton together would become two of the greatest hymn writers ever.
Indeed, God's frowning providence is mysterious, and His grace toward the elect will always shine through at the end, even when it is tempting to assume otherwise.

 

[Phil D.]

"Prayer doesn't change things." This is true in the ultimate sense of recognizing God's absolute sovereignty and preordination of all things. Yet taken alone or overemphasized at the expense of other truths it would be deficient in the sense that prayer is nonetheless an ordained secondary means by which God carries out his will (cf. WCF 5.1f.). Maintaining this holistic view is the only way many scriptures that teach us about prayer make any sense (Ps. 4:1; 17:6; Matt. 7:11; Phil. 4:6; Heb. 4:16; James 4:3, 5:16, etc.). From this perspective Matt. 18:19 and corporate prayer seem relative to the OP.

 

[RamistThomist]

yes.

God has ordained the means as well.

Agreed. Without this you have Hyper-Calvinist fatalism. Our tendency in these discussions is to abstract the end result from the myriad of causal nexuses in which our prayer is placed. And from this false mindset, we conclude that because God is sovereign, it doesn't really do anything.

 

[Taylor]

I appreciate the pushback (from @Pergamum, @Ed Walsh, @Phil D., and @BayouHuguenot). I want to emphasize that I fully agree with all of you. I chose my response to the OP fairly carefully. His question was very specific. His question was not, "Should we pray?" or, "How does God's decree square with his revealed will that we ought to pray?" Rather, he was asking about the (very common) belief that if we only we get more people to pray about a particular thing, it is more likely that God will do something about it. It was to that question, and that specific question only, that I responded no. Of course I believe that God ordains the means as well as the ends (@Pergamum), and that we are bound to obey God's revealed will (@Ed Walsh), and that we shouldn't consider God's decree alone in this matter (@Phil D.), and that without a biblical and balanced view of this that we end up in the error of fatalism (@BayouHuguenot).

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I appreciate the pushback (from @Pergamum, @Ed Walsh, @Phil D., and @BayouHuguenot). I want to emphasize that I fully agree with all of you. I chose my response to the OP fairly carefully. His question was very specific. His question was not, "Should we pray?" or, "How does God's decree square with his revealed will that we ought to pray?" Rather, he was asking about the (very common) belief that if we only we get more people to pray about a particular thing, it is more likely that God will do something about it. It was to that question, and that specific question only, that I responded no. Of course I believe that God ordains the means as well as the ends (@Pergamum), and that we are bound to obey God's revealed will (@Ed Walsh), and that we shouldn't consider God's decree alone in this matter (@Phil D.), and that without a biblical and balanced view of this that we end up in the error of fatalism (@BayouHuguenot).

Would you be willing to clarify when you said "prayer doesn't change anything"? I personally always try to think of prayer in a reasonable and measurable way, so I am often thinking about the subject.

For me, when I examine the Bible I see prayer accomplishing extraordinary things, and Jesus giving many clear teachings about real results flowing from prayer. It seems by looking at the Bible alone, that we should regularly expect the miraculous. After examining what the Bible says about this area in an unbiased way, I would even go as far as saying that it is God's will that His people should most of the time be healed of their various ailments. This was clearly the norm, and there are quite a few promises dealing with this as well.

But we all know the reality is that most of us walk around with ailments, for example on a regular basis. I have been trying to get to the bottom of this, so I am intrigued by your statement.

Some groups rely very heavily on God's sovereignty, while other groups rely moreso on the human action of asking God expecting real results.

 

[Taylor]

Would you be willing to clarify when you said "prayer doesn't change anything"?

I thought I already did. God uses our prayers as a means to accomplish his most glorious decree which was already immutably set before we ever prayed. As I said, the response I gave was in response to a very particular and practical question.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I thought I already did. God uses our prayers as a means to accomplish his most glorious decree which was already immutably set before we ever prayed. As I said, the response I gave was in response to a very particular and practical question.

Yeah, you just said that prayer is not like magic, but rather an act of submission. I've read an author that said something similar before. Does that mean in your philosophy, when you pray you do not really expect real changes to happen? What of the principle that Jesus taught, that we should believe that we have what we ask for, and it will be ours? I like the idea of viewing prayer as an act of submission, but there are so many Bible teachings about it producing so many real results. Prayer is absolutely a very mysterious thing.

 

[Taylor]

Yeah, you just said that prayer is not like magic, but rather an act of submission. I've read an author that said something similar before. Does that mean in your philosophy, when you pray you do not really expect real changes to happen? What of the principle that Jesus taught, that we should believe that we have what we ask for, and it will be ours? I like the idea of viewing prayer as an act of submission, but there are so many Bible teachings about it producing so many real results. Prayer is absolutely a very mysterious thing.

I expect God’s will to happen.

I suppose one of the reasons I’m saying what I’m saying is due to my charismatic upbringing, where prayer is really quite a fearful thing. Prayer is seen as an act of twisting God’s arm, as if God is constantly resisting us, and we have to
pray as forcefully and in as great a number as we can to get him to do what we want him to, and if there is a single person involved not praying or praying without faith, none of it will “work.” That’s magic—voodoo, witchcraft—not prayer.

Again, we should pray. We must pray. We should pray in sincere faith and genuine expectation. But not because God is sitting clueless in heaven waiting for us to direct him, but because we seek to submit ourselves to him by casting all our cares upon him, yet understanding that it is not our will, but his that will be done.

And, without trying to be rude or obstinate, I will stand by my statement that prayer does not change things. Because it doesn’t. That is not to say prayer does not do anything. But it doesn’t change anything. What would it even change? Certainly not God or his will. And it doesn’t have power in and of itself to alter the world or circumstances around us. Again, that would be magic. But does prayer do things? Of course, otherwise God would not command it.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I expect God’s will to happen.

I suppose one of the reasons I’m saying what I’m saying is due to my charismatic upbringing, where prayer is really quite a fearful thing. Prayer is seen as an act of twisting God’s arm, as if God is constantly resisting us, and we have to
pray as forcefully and in as great a number as we can to get him to do what we want him to, and if there is a single person involved not praying or praying without faith, none of it will “work.” That’s magic—voodoo, witchcraft—not prayer.

Again, we should pray. We must pray. We should pray in sincere faith and genuine expectation. But not because God is sitting clueless in heaven waiting for us to direct him, but because we seek to submit ourselves to him by casting all our cares upon him, yet understanding that it is not our will, but his that will be done.

And, without trying to be rude or obstinate, I will stand by my statement that prayer does not change things. Because it doesn’t. That is not to say prayer does not do anything. But it doesn’t change anything. What would it even change? Certainly not God or his will. And it doesn’t have power in and of itself to alter the world or circumstances around us. Again, that would be magic. But does prayer do things? Of course, otherwise God would not command it.

Would you say you witnessed more answered prayers in the charismatic setting than you do in the reformed? Thanks so much by the way for explaining what you believe!

 

[Solparvus]

I don't think there will be any disagreement that God's answers to prayer are absolutely sovereign. You're not Reformed in your theology of God if you think He is mutable in response to man's petitions, and you put a big question mark over the Larger Catechism calling Him "most wise" if a man could change His mind.

And sure, we know that God does use anthropomorphisms to describe His response, eg. He regrets appointing Saul, changes course at the intercession of Moses, and even in Joshua that He hearkened unto the voice of a man (that last one astounds me). God's decree is one, infallible, unchangeable, based on His omniscience, and in the absolute sense He acts accordingly.

Yet I think that cases such as Elijah and Moses and Joshua, or Jacob wrestling for hours with God, are meant to fuel people to pray, as they demonstrate God's great willingness to answer prayer, and to answer them in mighty ways. As though God is saying, "Yes, ask, and ask boldly, and ask persistently. Pray as though you could really change my mind, or wrestle me down, or as though you can really command me."

Of course that is the case of individuals, but is it not still significant that Jehoshaphat had all the nation of Judah to pray and fast on the verge of an impossible battle? I think it would have been a sign of a cursed situation if Jehoshaphat were the only one praying. A Judah that would not pray was liable to judgment, not blessing, as such would prove the people were self-sufficient. God had at times rewarded self-sufficiency quite harshly (2 Chronicles 16:12).

Solomon makes reference to not just one person praying for God's restoration, but the promise of restoration is when the people as a whole would call upon God, humble themselves in prayer, seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Would it have been sufficient if one or two men were praying at the Day of Pentecost? I'd be frightened to think of what it meant if only a few were.

Or in Acts 4 after the devil began flashing his teeth at the church.

Or only one or two people praying for Peter's release.

And if a group of people are not praying for something, could it be that they are saying, "We don't need God" or "He is not sufficient to help us"?

I don't have the words to explain my thoughts on the effect of a multitude praying, but for now I'm concerned on the ramifications of groups of persons not praying.

That said, it's a blessed thing to see the people of the church praying for this little one in the hospital.

 

[Grant]

@OP

God has ordained prayer to bring about change both great and small. So YES, pray and encourage more to pray having faith in the promises God gives in scripture regarding prayer. There are circumstances where we lack because we ask not!

The truth of God’s sovereignty should never be used as a reason to be resolved that less saints praying is just as effective as more saints praying. We ALWAYS need more uses of the ordained means because God has commanded and ordained them to bring REAL change.

 

[Taylor]

The truth of God’s sovereignty should never be used as a reason to be resolved that less saints praying is just as effective as more saints praying.

I just want to be clear again that I have never argued that.

 

[Grant]

I just want to be clear again that I have never argued that.

No worries. My post was not directed at you. Just my 2 cents to the OP.

 

[Christopher Robin]

Prayer changes ME. It humbles me, it clarifies my place in God's universe, it reinforces my utter dependence upon Him to appeal to His good pleasure. When my prayers are not for His name's sake, for His glory, and for self-serving or presumptuous motives, I know it right away because of the fact that I am addressing them to the King of the Universe. I find myself amending my prayers to rid them of selfishness and presumption, and asking Him to sanctify my desires and wishes. And as I am changed, I grow more and more confident of His decrees.

 

[FivePointSpurgeonist]

Regarding prayer there is 2 things I know and that is, 1. God has decreed everything that will come to pass and 2. I have not because I ask not. There are things I would have, that I do not have, if I prayed.

I can't reconcile the two (like many doctrines) and I don't have to, I just believe both.

 

[hLuke]

Regarding prayer there is 2 things I know and that is, 1. God has decreed everything that will come to pass and 2. I have not because I ask not. There are things I would have, that I do not have, if I prayed.

I can't reconcile the two (like many doctrines) and I don't have to, I just believe both.

I reckon this is spot on.

Maybe praying allows the believer to actively participate in God's eternal decree.

By active I mean more deeply coming to the throne of grace and finding grace in return.

And on the other hand a believer who does not knock persistently is missing out on a lot which God is more than willing to give.

This topic brings to mind Jesus' Parable about the persistent friend in Luke 11. (Luke 11:5-13)

Our Lord uses a unique word to describe the friends persistence: the friend was not only persistent, but exceedingly persistent and almost annoying, so much so that the guy had to give in!

I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. (Luke 11:8, ESV)

Impudence is defined on Google as:
not showing due respect for another person; impertinent.

The KJV renders:

I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth. (Luke 11:8, KJV)

Google defines importunity as:
persistence, especially to the point of annoyance.

The original Greek word is anaídeia —ἀναίδεια , and this is defined as shamelessness.

This may be akin to a baby spitting a dummy because they don't get what they want. So too we should pray like this to God.

Heb 4:16

 

[hLuke]

more than willing to give.

Things consistent with His will like seeking Christ's face or earnestly desiring spiritual joy. But can extend to material things.

 

[Ed Walsh]

And sure, we know that God does use anthropomorphisms to describe His response, eg. He regrets appointing Saul, changes course at the intercession of Moses, and even in Joshua that He hearkened unto the voice of a man (that last one astounds me). God's decree is one, infallible, unchangeable, based on His omniscience, and in the absolute sense He acts accordingly.

God and His ways are many-faceted and for the most part beyond our comprehension. We do and must live in the revealed will of God and not the decretive or the secret will of God. The revealed will of God is that prayer really changes things.

I put my heart and life on the line daily when I pray that thy will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Just as God does nothing without revealing his secretes to his prophets, so God does very little toward the fulfillment of the Great Commission apart from our prayers to that effect.

 

[Taylor]

We do and must live in the revealed will of God and not the decretive or the secret will of God. The revealed will of God is that prayer really changes things.

Brother, I'm not sure if you read my response to you above, but nobody here, and especially not me, is arguing that we are to try to live according to the decretive will of God. That is a bit of a straw man. As regards to your second statement, all I am saying is that prayer as prayer changes nothing. Rather, the One to whom we pray changes things, using our prayer as a glorious means to his own ends. I'm not sure why this would be controversial; it seems to me to be a more balanced understanding of what the entire Bible says of prayer and things pertaining to it. It might seem pedantic, but given the abuses I have seen and also lived through, I think it is a point of immense practical importance.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Brother, I'm not sure if you read my response to you above, but nobody here, and especially not me, is arguing that we are to try to live according to the decretive will of God.

I wasn't answering or contradicting anyone, actually. I just thought it was a pretty neat thing to say. Really!

 

[Edward]

My question is this: Does it matter if a thousand people pray for something as opposed to just one or two?

The scriptures say, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." If you have a bunch of people praying, it's more likely that at least one is going to be both righteous and fervent.

 

[Gwallard]

My question is this: Does it matter if a thousand people pray for something as opposed to just one or two? Does the number of people praying increase the chance of the request being answered?

I have not read the other replies, but I would think that 2 Corinthians 1: 11 has great bearing on this question:
"You also MUST help us by prayer, SO THAT many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessings granted us THROUGH THE PRAYERS OF MANY."

Paul 1) commands prayer from the entire Corinthian church because he 2) gives a direct link between the prayers of many and the answering if prayer. Interestingly, he wants them to pray that there might be thanksgiving, because the increase of Thanksgiving gives glory to God (2 Cor 4:15).

So, yes, more prayer means more answering, even if the sinful church of Corinth does the praying, but more prayer ought to also bring more thanksgiving and recognition of answered prayer. Prayer, too, is about the glory of God, shown through answered prayer. So, get people to pray, for God's glory to be shown!

Edit:
I have to admit, though, it's hard to translate:

11συνυπουργούντων καὶ ὑμῶν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν τῇ δεήσει, ἵνα ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων τὸ εἰς ἡμᾶς χάρισμα διὰ πολλῶν εὐχαριστηθῇ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν.