The argument for cessationism seems extremely weak.

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To note: just because I believe that Reformed arguments against cessationism are weak, I have challenged a number of continuationists in my church region on pastoral grounds (not of the abuse kind; just concerning the wisdom of the matter).
 
All the verse says is one day prophecies shall fail. And with Gaffin I don't believe that refers to the canon.

My position was never that we should always have the supernatural with us; rather, I maintain that the case for cessationism is logically and exegetically weaker than Reformed people might like to admit. My position is probably akin to Poythress's.
I believe I understand your meaning/purpose. I shan't attribute a view to you that you do not claim; if I err in what I thought you meant, I take responsibility.

I recall you wrote above you did not think "perfect" (v10) referred to canon completion. You did not indicate what you DID think it meant, but I assumed: the arrival of the Kingdom as the age to come completes its realization and God is all in all. v8 is tied to v9, speaking of prophesying "partially," which is "done away" v10, with the perfect on hand.

I uphold the case (I think it's strong enough) that the "perfect" is in reference to completion of the writing of NT (Christic) revelation, and the resumption of the patient days of ordinary providence fit for the mature church through this age (another referent for the "perfect"), i.e. the two elements are complementary. I don't think "prophecies failing" or the other terms of v8 are synonymous with "canon closure." I simply think all three of the gifts mentioned are used at that place in their extraordinary sense, and in that way are tied to the apostolic era, and for that reason will have served their purpose around the end of that period; hence, it is expected the established church as a rule does not need them afterward. (God may make exceptions to his own rules). Not needed, not in evidence thereafter. Furthermore, I like the way my analysis of the flow of Paul's thought makes his argument on the broader subject (chs.12-14) coherent and cogent to my mind.

I expect I'll try to find time to read Poythress, in part to understand where your thoughts (mainly) lie.
 
RC Sproul made a helpful distinction in saying that all miracles are supernatural but not supernatural acts are miracles.

That's true, but it needs to be glossed a bit more. Take the most miraculous event of the OT, the Exodus. God used the wind to dry up the waters. So it is supernatural, but through natural means.
 
RC Sproul made a helpful distinction in saying that all miracles are supernatural but not supernatural acts are miracles.
That would only be helpful in this thread if it is first agreed upon how to define the non-Biblical term/concept "miracle" - I don't think that has happened yet! I think some have argued above that supernatural acts = miracles (= extraordinary providences).

For the sake of the discussion, could you provide an example (your own or from Sproul) of a supernatural act that you would not consider a "miracle"?
 
That would only be helpful in this thread if it is first agreed upon how to define the non-Biblical term/concept "miracle" - I don't think that has happened yet! I think some have argued above that supernatural acts = miracles (= extraordinary providences).

For the sake of the discussion, could you provide an example (your own or from Sproul) of a supernatural act that you would not consider a "miracle"?
Glancing at Berkhof, Theophanies. Burning bush. Where there is a direct manifestation of God (vs. a miraculous healing)
 
And here we can make the discussion even murkier.

Person has cancer.
I pray for that person.
All of a sudden the cancer is gone. Did my prayer make it happen? Maybe. I like to think so, but I can't "prove" it happened that way. Of course, I believe in miracles today, so I like to think it did. But there could be a natural explanation. The timing of it makes it somewhat suspicious, but still..
 
And here we can make the discussion even murkier.

Person has cancer.
I pray for that person.
All of a sudden the cancer is gone. Did my prayer make it happen? Maybe. I like to think so, but I can't "prove" it happened that way. Of course, I believe in miracles today, so I like to think it did. But there could be a natural explanation. The timing of it makes it somewhat suspicious, but still..
Even if the cancer were cured supernaturally, by definition it wouldn’t be a miracle but an extraordinary providence, since it has no revelatory function. Besides, this seems irrelevant. I don’t think anyone here denies that God answers prayer and works supernaturally. Praying for healing is not the gift of healing.
 
And here we can make the discussion even murkier.

Person has cancer.
I pray for that person.
All of a sudden the cancer is gone. Did my prayer make it happen? Maybe. I like to think so, but I can't "prove" it happened that way. Of course, I believe in miracles today, so I like to think it did. But there could be a natural explanation. The timing of it makes it somewhat suspicious, but still..
You can break it down to cells moving here and there to remove the cancer. Natural? We will never know enough to define something as a miracle.

We have to admit, the miracles (or not) today are different from what we read in Acts. Things in the Corinthian church seemingly are not being replicated in any gospel centered church (not the prosperity churches and I note your Moreland mention)
 
Berkhof's Manual - just for reference

Miracles. According to Scripture God also reveals Himself in miracles. It is especially from this point of view that the miracles of Scripture should be studied. While they excite a feeling of wonder, they are not, like the so-called miracles of heathen sorcerers, primarily portents which fill man with amazement. They are above all manifestations of a special power of God, tokens of His special presence, and frequently serve to symbolize spiritual truths. As manifestations of the ever-coming kingdom of God, they are made subservient to the great work of redemption. Hence they frequently serve to punish the wicked and to help or deliver the people of God. They confirm the words of prophecy and point to the new order that is being established by God. The miracles of Scripture, too, culminate in the incarnation, which is the greatest and most central miracle of all. In Christ, who is the absolute miracle, all things are restored and creation is brought back to its pristine beauty, Acts 3:21.
 
Even if the cancer were cured supernaturally, by definition it wouldn’t be a miracle but an extraordinary providence, since it has no revelatory function
The gift of healing in 1 Cor 12:4-7 isn’t revelatory in function. It’s for edification, not revelation
 
Even if the cancer were cured supernaturally, by definition it wouldn’t be a miracle but an extraordinary providence, since it has no revelatory function. Besides, this seems irrelevant. I don’t think anyone here denies that God answers prayer and works supernaturally. Praying for healing is not the gift of healing.
Interesting thought, brother. In what way would it not be revelatory? If it reveals God as Lord and healer, isn't that a revealing of God to His people? Maybe we are using different definitions. Thanks!
 
The gift of healing in 1 Cor 12:4-7 isn’t revelatory in function. It’s for edification, not revelation
I'm not sure if terms are being used in the same way, consistently, by various people in the discussion. I'm not saying the whole conversation is pure equivocation. But, taking off from the above statement...

Isn't it most reasonable to see that the Spirit's gifts are all bound up together, though individually/personally distributed through the body; and therefore they have a combined function, singular, not purely discrete functions. Moreover, each gift is not limited to one function; but clearly may do "double-duty," performing functions at various levels.

Healing in the nature of the case has not an either-or function. All one needs do is look at the healings performed by Christ, to note their revelatory function. His healings also could not help but be edifying/strengthening to both individual recipients (and loved ones) and the church of the time; but in the Lord's own case conducting the healing was meant to draw all men to him, to cause them to put their faith in him and his words. Something similar can be said about the OT--the example of Naaman comes quickly to mind. The healing that he experienced (which Jesus himself takes note of) had as its primary purpose revelation of the power of the true God.

When one puts the 1C church's healing gift into the context of the apostolic era, it's abundantly clear to me that--as with their Lord, immediately preceding in time--the presence of healing was one element among many for the validation of the word of the gospel apostolically proclaimed. The word, the agents of the word, and the church institution established by the word through the agents of it, to be its pillar and ground, were authenticated by a multiplicity of signs attesting to the reality of this great work of God in Christ.

And of course, anyone who was restored by the work of divine healing, directly attributable to known Spirit-intervention felt the contribution personally, experienced strengthening, as did those who beside him desired the same and fed of the work's fruit. When Eutychus was brought back to life, Act.20:9-12, "they were not a little comforted," i.e. edified. But the context of relating the healing itself bears witness to the prioritized purpose for which the healing served, namely the apostle's preaching (vv7,9,11, the last v actually set between notice of the death and notice of the reanimation).

The message of healing in the Bible is one that says, "Physical healing is a good thing, especially for supporting and drawing attention to the need of everyone for spiritual healing." Our bodies are instrumental for us to glorify God, 1Cor.6:20, for which reason they must and will be raised again on the last day--healed for all time, purged of sin's corruption. God's power to heal is indivisible from the revelatory function of signs generally. Begin 1Cor.12:3, the chapter I previously mentioned presenting Paul's core doctrine of the gifts of the Spirit. From there, note the gifts are from "the same Spirit," vv8,9,11; and "one Spirit," v13, twice told.

The plea I'm making is that we should all recognize how the whole issue of the Spirit's gifts: extraordinary and ordinary, revelatory, edifying, glorifying, temporary, occasional, permanent--it is a complex matter, a rich matter, not usefully reduced to non-nuanced and contrary positions, requiring serious exegetical labor in 1Cor.12-14, and related biblical territory.
 
Interesting thought, brother. In what way would it not be revelatory? If it reveals God as Lord and healer, isn't that a revealing of God to His people? Maybe we are using different definitions. Thanks!
I was saying as much in the context of what I've already said: miracles are explicitly redemptive-historical and revelatory in purpose. Yes, all things reveal something about God (Psalm 19; Romans 1:18 ff.), but there is a difference between the revelation given by the starry night sky and the revelation given by a man striking the Red Sea and parting it. A woman today being healed of her cancer supernaturally serves no explicit redemptive-historical or revelatory purpose (which is why miracles are so intimately tied to Scripture).
 
When one puts the 1C church's healing gift into the context of the apostolic era, it's abundantly clear to me that--as with their Lord, immediately preceding in time--the presence of healing was one element among many for the validation of the word of the gospel apostolically proclaimed.

Perhaps, but that is not what the text says. The text says it is for edification. And if the gifts are bound together, then it is hard to see how one ceases while the others remain.
 
I was saying as much in the context of what I've already said: miracles are explicitly redemptive-historical and revelatory in purpose. Yes, all things reveal something about God (Psalm 19; Romans 1:18 ff.), but there is a difference between the revelation given by the starry night sky and the revelation given by a man striking the Red Sea and parting it. A woman today being healed of her cancer supernaturally serves no explicit redemptive-historical or revelatory purpose (which is why miracles are so intimately tied to Scripture).

If that is how you want to define miracle, I understand. In that case, I am not using miracle in that sense.
 
miracles are explicitly redemptive-historical and revelatory in purpose.
I want to like this definition but I keep thinking of holes - for example, when Elisha makes the borrowed axe head float in II Kings 6, is that a miracle? I believe I could stretch it to fit a redemptive-historical and/or revelatory purpose, but I don't think anyone would argue it is explicitly so. At the same time, I think most would say this was a "miracle."
 
the so-called miracles of heathen sorcerers
I was curious about this the other day when I was trying to figure out the different words used in Scripture for what we call "miracles." When Moses performs "signs" (אוֹת) and "wonders" (מוֹפֵת) before Pharaoh and Pharaoh's wisemen and sorcerers are called upon to do the same "those charmers [magicians] also of Egypt did in like manner with their enchantments." The word translated "enchantments" is only used twice in Scripture - here and to describe the flaming sword in Genesis 3. I think it is important to note that there is a clear distinction - by means of using different words - between the supernatural acts of/from God and those that are not, with the phrase we often translate "signs and wonders" only ever used to refer to the former. I think this is probably consistent in the New Testament (Simon Magus in Acts 8 comes to mind).
 
I was curious about this the other day when I was trying to figure out the different words used in Scripture for what we call "miracles." When Moses performs "signs" (אוֹת) and "wonders" (מוֹפֵת) before Pharaoh and Pharaoh's wisemen and sorcerers are called upon to do the same "those charmers [magicians] also of Egypt did in like manner with their enchantments." The word translated "enchantments" is only used twice in Scripture - here and to describe the flaming sword in Genesis 3. I think it is important to note that there is a clear distinction - by means of using different words - between the supernatural acts of/from God and those that are not, with the phrase we often translate "signs and wonders" only ever used to refer to the former. I think this is probably consistent in the New Testament (Simon Magus in Acts 8 comes to mind).

And also that the False Prophet will do lying wonders.
 
Perhaps, but that is not what the text says. The text says it is for edification. And if the gifts are bound together, then it is hard to see how one ceases while the others remain.
Edifying indeed (I assume συμφέρον is the exact term you have in mind), but the passage doesn't begin with v7, but with v1; and in particular v3 sets the foundation for the gifts in the proclamation of the word, and the verbal witness that repeats the word in faith. So in terms of tracing the theology of the passage, the manifestation of the Spirit through gifts and those gifts used for edification, their presence attests to the truth proclaimed in v3.

On the contrary, therefore, the text begins on the point I made, and is as explicit to that point as to the mutual service ideal. Ch.14 begins Paul's critical assessment by again focusing on the church's verbal witness using this gift and that. Properly used, this witness edifies (14:3) and exhorts and comforts; the church is edified (14:4) while at the same time revelation is made of God and his will, to the benefit of every class of person attending. The goal is an intelligent "Amen," 14:16.

As to parsing a distinction between gifts (of a unified field), with some that might belong especially to a peculiar era, Paul appeals by way of illustration in the extended passage (see 1Cor.13:11) to the distinction between the self's ages of childhood and maturity. There are some things (gifts?) fit for childhood, that are not equally fit for adulthood. Complex organisms display a development/maintenance arc; since our one package of DNA produces certain effects in utero and childhood, and others in adulthood, while still other effects function relatively consistently throughout our lifetimes. So, I can't accept the "all-or-nothing" paradigm as if any other concept is irrational.

I really don't think I'm eisegeting concepts into the passage that are simply alien to it. And when we draw in our general appreciation of Paul's thought, and of the NT more broadly, and eventually the OT... I'm not consciously running to elsewhere to make a basis for my interpretation here, but I am interested in coherence. overall.
 
And also that the False Prophet will do lying wonders.
Yes, in II Thess 2, Rev. 19.20 and Matt. 24.24 the false prophets/prophet are spoken of as using "signs and wonders," so maybe this does not equate to the Hebrew words which seems to only use such terms to describe supernatural acts of God. In the NT it seems this phrase is used to refer to either those acts of/from God (see Acts 2.19,22) and those that pretend to be so (Matt/II Thess/Rev), though in the latter case it seems they are always qualified as false/lying or from people so categorized. It is interesting, considering the OP, that many of these references to "signs and wonders" in the NT are in the context of the more ecstatic gifts, the fulfillment of prophecy, and the apocalypse to come (Acts 2.16-22 again being a good example of all of this, having all 3).
 
I want to like this definition but I keep thinking of holes - for example, when Elisha makes the borrowed axe head float in II Kings 6, is that a miracle? I believe I could stretch it to fit a redemptive-historical and/or revelatory purpose, but I don't think anyone would argue it is explicitly so. At the same time, I think most would say this was a "miracle."
The miraculous event is not merely a place-holder. It is is a recorded sign, preserved in the redemptive history by a prophet under inspiration. Our doctrine of Scripture compels us to accept this sign not as if it was a random miracle-event that (unlike others?) was saved from obscurity more or less by accident, but rather as it fulfills one intermediate, even crucial step on the path of expectation of the Messiah's arrival. If we haven't yet understood what role a particular event (no matter how small) fills in that work, we must be patient to learn what it has to say in that vein.

Our Bible study is impoverished when we reduce what comes down to us to the scraps of ancient history, some which was kept (allegedly) more for how old it was when it was found, or for some anecdotal or trivial reason (like, "we included every event of Elisha's life that someone remembered" just because he was a prophet). Everything that was preserved in Holy Scripture is tied to God's plan of provision for our need as weak, fallen sinners. This confidence makes us argue: Yes, the floating axe head story is included explicitly for redemptive-historical revelation purpose.
 
That would only be helpful in this thread if it is first agreed upon how to define the non-Biblical term/concept "miracle" - I don't think that has happened yet! I think some have argued above that supernatural acts = miracles (= extraordinary providences).

For the sake of the discussion, could you provide an example (your own or from Sproul) of a supernatural act that you would not consider a "miracle"?
Getting a check in the mail you never saw coming but hit right during a financial crisis. Supernatural? Yes. Miraculous? No.
 
Getting a check in the mail you never saw coming but hit right during a financial crisis. Supernatural? Yes. Miraculous? No.
Exactly. Most of us have experienced that. Those kinds of Providences were often realized in the lives of the Schaeffer's during the early years at L'Abri. Edith wrote about many such things from checks and visas coming through, houses being available/affordable in the nick of time and so on.
 
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