Do heretics go to heaven?

[Deleted member 13126]

I recently spent a great deal of time reading through various texts on time, incarnation, eternal generation and other related topics. It’s definitely got me thinking.

Some of these topics seem to be beyond me at the present time, and perhaps beyond many. I’m still working through them to the best of my ability.

It seems reasonable that some individuals may unknowingly harbor heretical beliefs as they either haven’t taken the time to work through some of these topics or they simply lack the ability to and can’t. Others like the thief on the cross literally didn’t have time to.

Similarly, the early church had different ideas than we do today around baptismal regeneration and all kinds of things that we know to be false.

So do unwitting heretics go to heaven? What about witting heretics? Why or why not?

 

[Deleted member 13126]

If that question is too broad to answer decisively, here are some more specific questions I have which might be helpful.

1. What specific information must one believe in order to be saved? My understanding has always been the gospel, but wouldn’t a different understanding of Christ always result in a different understanding of the gospel?

2. Were all professing Christians that appeared to be good trees bearing good fruit while trusting solely in the substitutionary atonement of Christ prior to Nicea saved despite other having other theological differences?

3. Was the thief on the cross even Trinitarian?

 

[JD]

...unwitting heretics...

...witting heretics...

We have to be careful with the H word. A robust biblical definition of heretic is going be be necessary to answer these questions.

I'd argue that there's no such thing as the former. We all harbor wrong understandings because we're all finite, fallible, naturally sinful men. Knowingly and obstinately choosing to believe contrary to the teaching of the Word or the counsel of godly elders (without biblical warrant) would constitue a heretic.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

We have to be careful with the H word. A robust biblical definition of heretic is going be be necessary to answer these questions.

I'd argue that there's no such thing as the former. We all harbor wrong understandings because we're all finite, fallible, naturally sinful men. Knowingly and obstinately choosing to believe contrary to the teaching of the Word or the counsel of godly elders (without biblical warrant) would constitue a heretic.

I think this is a helpful distinction. However, non-trinitarians would frequently be classified as heretics, wouldn’t they? They are, in a sense, knowingly and obstinately rejecting our Trinitarian interpretation of God’s Word. They would probably say the same about us. Are both groups, on the whole, going to Heaven, despite being heretics in each other’s estimation?

Are informed, wholehearted, practicing Catholics going to Heaven?

Admittedly, my understanding up until this point has been No, we won’t see the Pope and such people in Heaven as they’ve got so much wrong that it’s an altogether different religion. But now I’m going back and trying to be more precise in my thinking.

How much do we need to “get right” to be counted among those in the kingdom of God?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I think this is a helpful distinction. However, non-trinitarians would frequently be classified as heretics, wouldn’t they? They are, in a sense, knowingly and obstinately rejecting our Trinitarian interpretation of God’s Word. They would probably say the same about us. Are both groups, on the whole, going to Heaven, despite being heretics in each other’s estimation?

Are informed, wholehearted, practicing Catholics going to Heaven? Admittedly, my understanding up until this point has been No, we won’t see the Pope and such people in Heaven as they’ve got so much wrong that it’s an altogether different religion.

Good morning. I don't think somebody necessarily needs to know or believe the Trinity to become a Christian, but if on their journey as a Christian, they come to reject the doctrine I think that is evidence of wavering from the truth.

 

[RamistThomist]

Turretin noted different levels of heretics.

Chief heresiarchs like Arius are on one level, the highest.

Aunt Bessie May at Tarwater Church of Christ in the boondocks who don't know no better isn't in the same level. I give them charity of judgment.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

Turretin noted different levels of heretics.

Chief heresiarchs like Arius are on one level, the highest.

Aunt Bessie May at Tarwater Church of Christ in the boondocks who don't know no better isn't in the same level. I give them charity of judgment.

That’s fair. But are the chiefs in Heaven, or just the aunts? Can we really know one way or the other?

 

[RamistThomist]

That’s fair. But are the chiefs in Heaven, or just the aunts? Can we really know one way or the other?

Chiefs, probably not. Others....much of that depends on what exactly they believe (how many average Americans in a lowest-common denominator, albeit Trinitarian, evangelical church could give a coherent presentation of the Trinity?). I err on the side of charity.

 

[earl40]

What I have learned in life is that Pastors, Ruling Elders, and people like us, who frequent sites like the Puritan Board are a strange breed. I say this knowing the vast number of Christians have a faith that is simple but real. It is easy to pick apart others faults and can be detrimental to fellowship. As Jacob said charity is the key for it covers a multitude of sin,

 

[Scott Bushey]

I believe that there’s something to be said in regards to the differences between error and heresy. Most Christians, in someway or another are in some sort of error. Some of these errors are heterodox. Ignorance may be key. So to reject historic orthodoxy is not always heretical; consider yourself earlier in your walk.

Anything that we have, knowledge, faith and truth come down from the father of light. The Lord has saw fit to not give us complete knowledge all at once. This says so much in regards to the topic.

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. In God’s time, not ours. Earlier in my walk, did I have some heretical views? The chances are great, I did. Even the most astute scholars cannot explain some of the deeper things of scripture accurately. There are things that are way above our nature. To expound on them erroneously could border on heresy. Does that make them heretics or erring believers?

I believe some of the creeds pretty much handle this. If a person that was not a young Christian, was to tell me that he rejects the apostles creed, I would most likely have to vet him to determine whether or not he was intentionally rejecting that creed, or he was an ignorance.

We do have a few examples in scripture where people departed from orthodoxy. It doesn’t tell us whether or not this person or these persons ever recanted from their error.

Lastly, those with faith, true faith have been given that faith from God. That good faith will flourish and grow. Heretics, on the other hand, do not have true faith. So in my opinion, the key would be whether or not that person has true Faith. We were told that we will know them by their fruit. Trees that bear fruit, have seasons of fruit bearing, and we must let those seasons pass, so as to see how that fruit is from season to season. If that tree continues to bear bad fruit, I guess that this would be a sign that that person is involved in heresy and is a heretic.

 

[dsanch1120]

A pastor at my church made an interesting distinction that I’ve found helpful between believers with heretical beliefs (including those that teach said beliefs) and heretics.
Believers with heretical beliefs only hold said beliefs until they are given the truth. When shown the truth according to scripture, they reject the heresy and embrace the truth of scripture.
Heretics tends to dig their heels in deeper.
Now the term heresy in this sense is more specifically referring to a damning belief.
The thief on the cross may not have had a Trinitarian understanding akin to a post Niceness/Athanasian creed believer, but if presented with the trinity, he would have accepted it gladly.

 

[MyCrows]

In John 8:23-28, Jesus says, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

He continues on in John 8:30-32, As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Eventually in this same discourse, these believing jews were rejected by Christ, because they rejected what he taught about himself. What exactly did they believe about him? Not enough to demonstrate that they were indeed children of the Living God, rather, just enough to demonstrate that they were "sons of the devil". John 8:44-45

John, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote his gospel, that "ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

There is a time for learning, for those of us blessed with that time. Time that some aren't granted. Time that God has complete sovereignty over, and that He can use to show mercy to whom He may show mercy.

For those of us who have the scriptures, the very Word of God, woe to us if we do not repent of our stubbornness, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, as He has revealed himself to us.

 

[Steve Curtis]

Some may not have seen this before, but I think it is helpful:

 

[MyCrows]

Some may not have seen this before, but I think it is helpful:

You are aware that your first post was a link to a lawsuit over hot sauce?.....

Lol

 

[Steve Curtis]

Yup. That was a good one, too, though not fitting to this discussion!

 

[Scott Bushey]

I don’t believe A. Rogers is accurate here; no, I do give him some credence and respect to his understanding of covenant theology, which is lacking.

This thief, most likely, since he was being crucified with a Jew, and it was Rome issuing up the penalty for the sin, on Israel’s behalf, he had the sign in his flesh from the eight day. Most likely, it would not be odd to assume that he was a catechized Jew that had fallen away from the Faith. It is my opinion, that he knew much more than those that are not, covenantally minded, would give him credit for. So the premise, that he was never baptized is a misnomer.

 

[Steve Curtis]

I don’t believe A. Rogers is accurate here

To be clear, that's not Adrian Rogers, but rather Alistair Begg.

most likely

And this is merely an assumption.

 

[Steve Curtis]

it would not be odd to assume that he was a catechized Jew that had fallen away

Not odd at all! Yet, still an assumption. We simply cannot know

 

[Balticus]

Do heretics go to heaven?

An interesting question to which I don't know the answer.

I'd just like to point out two things:

1. Ultimately, we don't know who goes to heaven and who doesn't. Only God knows that.
2. Our minds and hearts should be occupied with our own salvation rather than that of others (unless, of course,
we are thinking about our family members, friends etc.).

So, in short, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and let God deal with heretics the way He sees fit.

 

[MyCrows]

Also, let us not forget that the truth that sets us free, the knowledge of the savior, and true faith in him, is a gift. A gift that not all men receive. Matt. 16:13-17

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[JD]

1. What specific information must one believe in order to be saved? My understanding has always been the gospel, but wouldn’t a different understanding of Christ always result in a different understanding of the gospel?

Good morning. I don't think somebody necessarily needs to know or believe the Trinity to become a Christian, but if on their journey as a Christian, they come to reject the doctrine I think that is evidence of wavering from the truth.

Does not the Athanasian Creed imply that knowledge of and belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation? "Whosoever wishes to be saved..."

 

[dhh712]

I recently spent a great deal of time reading through various texts on time, incarnation, eternal generation and other related topics. It’s definitely got me thinking.

Some of these topics seem to be beyond me at the present time, and perhaps beyond many. I’m still working through them to the best of my ability.

It seems reasonable that some individuals may unknowingly harbor heretical beliefs as they either haven’t taken the time to work through some of these topics or they simply lack the ability to and can’t. Others like the thief on the cross literally didn’t have time to.

Similarly, the early church had different ideas than we do today around baptismal regeneration and all kinds of things that we know to be false.

So do unwitting heretics go to heaven? What about witting heretics? Why or why not?

I really do believe that heretics can be saved because it's not doctrine that saves but Jesus. Of course, that absolutely does not mean that doctrine should be thrown out the window. Yet God has given each a measure of faith and if one is given the gift of understanding sound doctrine it should not be looked at as a matter of personal pride (as in like "we're right and you guys over there aren't, so maybe you should get some sense about you and actually read what's in the Bible) but humility in that the Holy Spirit has given us this understanding of Him and His character.

 

[Theoretical]

Believers with heretical beliefs only hold said beliefs until they are given the truth. When shown the truth according to scripture, they reject the heresy and embrace the truth of scripture.

I think this is the best way to approach it. There's a vast difference between holding even seriously erroneous views and digging on them and responding something akin to, "whoa I was wrong, thank you for correcting me."

 

[MyCrows]

Some may not have seen this before, but I think it is helpful:

Mr. Begg as much a I appreciate him and his ministry, is saying more than some may suspect in this message. While I think he is correct when he alludes to the Fort Lauderdale question, which I believe is a reference to Evangelism Explosion, if taken to its logical conclusion leaves consistent Arminians outside of the realm of salvation due to their doctrine of salvation.

Arminianism teaches that men are saved by Christ because they choose to come to him.

 

[jwithnell]

To make it simple, take the Apostles Creed -- a standard of the faith since the earliest days of the NT church. A person or institution that denies any of those points is a heretic.

That leaves a lot of room to be a believer but mistaken or in disagreement with other churches. The "H" word gets thrown around too easily.

To be a heretic is to stand outside the dogma of the church because you do not believe in the Trinity, or you believe Christ was created or any point in disagreement with the creeds.

You don't affirm God's sovereignty in salvation? Well, that's serious error but not outside the faith. You think communion should be weekly? Well there's a lot of different opinions but that's perfectly in the authority of the local church to decide.

 

[Polanus1561]

I wonder if there is a distinction between men given over to Satan (1 Pet 2.1) and true believers who suffer the effects of such heresies and with a good conscience they propagate such though in error.

 

[MyCrows]

I wonder if there is a distinction between men given over to Satan (1 Pet 2.1) and true believers who suffer the effects of such heresies and with a good conscience they propagate such though in error.

Maybe to some degree, but many heretics are both deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim. 3:13

Their being deceived is no excuse for their false teaching. Remember it is peoples rejection of the truth that God often rewards with even further delusion. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

Peter also comments heavily on the nature and fate of false teachers in his second epistle, concluding his epistle with these words,

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Pet. 3:15-16

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Something that should be mentioned, is that the New Testament false teachers in the letters are often connected to immoral living. But then again, there were the Jews as well, who seemed to be outwardly righteous, but way off on doctrine, and they were still condemned.

 

[Egoshev]

The New Testament identifies "heretics" as those who reject or deviate from the Apostolic teachings. We firmly believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Church to succinctly proclaim these apostolic teachings, encapsulating them in 12 statements of faith. With this understanding, it becomes clear that a heretic would inherently reject the core Gospel itself, for without the apostolic teaching, there can be no genuine Gospel. The Apostles' Creed serves as a faithful repository of the Gospel message.

The Bible underscores the significance of adhering to apostolic teachings. In Galatians 1:8-9, the apostle Paul emphasizes the gravity of deviating from these teachings:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."


Now, let's delve in the core of the Apostles' Creed to see how it embodies the genuine Gospel:

- God as the Father Almighty: The creed commences by affirming faith in God the Father Almighty, highlighting His role as the Creator and supreme authority. This aligns perfectly with the Gospel, which recognizes God as the ultimate source of salvation (Romans 8:15).

- Jesus Christ, His Only Son: The creed reverently acknowledges Jesus Christ as the Son of God. This is central to the Gospel, as it is exclusively through Jesus that salvation is attainable (John 3:16).

- Conceived by the Holy Spirit, Born of the Virgin Mary: This aspect of the creed references the miraculous birth of Jesus through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. It underscores the belief in the Incarnation, an indispensable component of the Gospel (Matthew 1:20-21).

- Suffered Under Pontius Pilate, Crucified, Died, and Buried: These phrases in the creed reflect the historical events surrounding Jesus' crucifixion and death, which are pivotal to the Gospel's message of atonement and forgiveness of sins through Christ's sacrifice (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

- On the Third Day, He Rose Again from the Dead: This declaration aligns with the core Gospel belief in Jesus' resurrection, signifying victory over sin and death (1 Peter 1:3).

- He Ascended into Heaven, and Sits at the Right Hand of God the Father Almighty: This part of the creed affirms the exalted position of Jesus, which is in harmony with the Gospel's proclamation that He is Lord and Savior (Acts 1:9).


In my conclusion, a sincere believer, upon encountering the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, should unquestionably accept it as a statement of faith. It embodies the Gospel message and aligns with the apostolic teachings, serving as a steadfast confession of our Christian faith.
Q: Can a genuine Christian be saved without the Apostle's Teaching?
A: No, since without the Gospel there is no salvation - and without the Apostolic teaching, there is no Gospel.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

The New Testament identifies "heretics" as those who reject or deviate from the Apostolic teachings. We firmly believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Church to succinctly proclaim these apostolic teachings, encapsulating them in 12 statements of faith. With this understanding, it becomes clear that a heretic would inherently reject the core Gospel itself, for without the apostolic teaching, there can be no genuine Gospel. The Apostles' Creed serves as a faithful repository of the Gospel message.

The Bible underscores the significance of adhering to apostolic teachings. In Galatians 1:8-9, the apostle Paul emphasizes the gravity of deviating from these teachings:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."


Now, let's delve in the core of the Apostles' Creed to see how it embodies the genuine Gospel:

- God as the Father Almighty: The creed commences by affirming faith in God the Father Almighty, highlighting His role as the Creator and supreme authority. This aligns perfectly with the Gospel, which recognizes God as the ultimate source of salvation (Romans 8:15).

- Jesus Christ, His Only Son: The creed reverently acknowledges Jesus Christ as the Son of God. This is central to the Gospel, as it is exclusively through Jesus that salvation is attainable (John 3:16).

- Conceived by the Holy Spirit, Born of the Virgin Mary: This aspect of the creed references the miraculous birth of Jesus through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. It underscores the belief in the Incarnation, an indispensable component of the Gospel (Matthew 1:20-21).

- Suffered Under Pontius Pilate, Crucified, Died, and Buried: These phrases in the creed reflect the historical events surrounding Jesus' crucifixion and death, which are pivotal to the Gospel's message of atonement and forgiveness of sins through Christ's sacrifice (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

- On the Third Day, He Rose Again from the Dead: This declaration aligns with the core Gospel belief in Jesus' resurrection, signifying victory over sin and death (1 Peter 1:3).

- He Ascended into Heaven, and Sits at the Right Hand of God the Father Almighty: This part of the creed affirms the exalted position of Jesus, which is in harmony with the Gospel's proclamation that He is Lord and Savior (Acts 1:9).


In my conclusion, a sincere believer, upon encountering the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, should unquestionably accept it as a statement of faith. It embodies the Gospel message and aligns with the apostolic teachings, serving as a steadfast confession of our Christian faith.
Q: Can a genuine Christian be saved without the Apostle's Teaching?
A: No, since without the Gospel there is no salvation - and without the Apostolic teaching, there is no Gospel.

In case you or others are willing to interact with some of the more specific questions a bit, as no one else really has other than to say “if they were confronted with the creeds they would agree,” I’ve quoted two of them below for your consideration.

2. Were all professing Christians that appeared to be good trees bearing good fruit while trusting solely in the substitutionary atonement of Christ prior to Nicea saved despite other having other theological differences?

3. Was the thief on the cross even Trinitarian?