Whether a proper "table" is required?

[PhilalethesIrenaeus]

At my church a new table was lately introduced. It came out of a defunct Roman Catholic church. I take issue with calling it a table, as the height is such that it is made for standing at. At our church the elders distribute the elements with trays, so the table would never be meant to be properly sat at. Still, I've maintained some scruple about it and wonder if anyone else would feel the same? It's aggravated in my mind by a few other things that have changed in the past year which are vestments, lifting of the elements, and use of the 2019 ACNA Book of Common Prayer communion service, which is all done weekly (weekly communion has always been the practice here.) There was a scarf on it bearing the image of a dove overlayed on three rings but it has been removed. This is meant to be an OPC congregation.

 

[MyCrows]

I don't believe any specific height would either qualify, or disqualify it, from being used as the table. That being said, it should be an accessible height for the majority, if not all, of the communicant participants. I would take greater issue with the bearing of representative symbols on the table, than the specific height of the table.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

At my church a new table was lately introduced. It came out of a defunct Roman Catholic church. I take issue with calling it a table, as the height is such that it is made for standing at. At our church the elders distribute the elements with trays, so the table would never be meant to be properly sat at. Still, I've maintained some scruple about it and wonder if anyone else would feel the same? It's aggravated in my mind by a few other things that have changed in the past year which are vestments, lifting of the elements, and use of the 2019 ACNA Book of Common Prayer communion service, which is all done weekly (weekly communion has always been the practice here.) There was a scarf on it bearing the image of a dove overlayed on three rings but it has been removed. This is meant to be an OPC congregation.View attachment 11113

Roman Catholic churches don't have tables. They have altars. That is an altar.

 

[MyCrows]

Roman Catholic churches don't have tables. They have altars. That is an altar.

I was judging the height by the extended microphone to the left.

While I have never had much insight into the actual inside of a Roman Catholic church, the shape does resemble something different than a typical table.

 

[Logan]

I'm more concerned by the other things you mention than the table.

 

[PhilalethesIrenaeus]

Roman Catholic churches don't have tables. They have altars. That is an altar.

To clarify, I don't believe it was used previously as an altar but a lectionary/reading table. We use it as a communion table.

 

[Edward]

That is an altar.

An RC altar should have a place to hold the relic. (The papist should have removed the relic before selling the piece of furniture.) I'd look for the hidey-hole before definitely calling it an altar.

 

[PhilalethesIrenaeus]

I'm more concerned by the other things you mention than the table.

Our current stated supply pastor is a former priest in the Orthodox Church in America and currently a (I believe) ACNA minister. These changes came about with their arrival, and I do find them concerning, though I'm certain they won't be reverted.

 

[yeutter]

Exodus 12:11 "And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover."
What height was the table of the Israelites when they celebrated their first Passover?
The Exodus passage

Roman Catholic churches don't have tables. They have altars. That is an altar.

The Church of Rome indeed has altars; but in the post Vatican 2 Church of Rome the mass is no longer celebrated ad orientem at an altar at the front of the Church building. Now the mass is celebrated versus populum. The table pictured could have been used as a lectionary, but though it is a little small it is otherwise typical of the kind of "altars' seen in many contemporary parishes of the Church of Rome.

The Exodus passage seems to teach that the Passover was received standing. But we read In Luke 22:13-14 "And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him."

Should we understand this to mean that the Bible teaches that the presbyter celebrating the Lord's Supper should be seated. Does the Bible teach that we should receive the Lord's Supper sitting, rather than standing or kneeling?

 

[Jack K]

I'm not convinced a table is required at all. The bread and cup are the elements of the Supper.

A table does fit some of the strongest biblical imagery connected to the Supper, so I think it's preferable to have one. But your church does not practice the Supper by having congregants sit together at a table, and there's no need to insist that the table symbolizing the feast Christ is providing must be an actual dining table of customary dining-table height, width, length, legroom, cushioned chairs, etc. I don't think I've ever been served the Supper from a table I would actually want to sit at for an extended meal. They've all been rather small, or lacking legroom, or have come with a too-large tablecloth that would catch on chair legs, or something like that. I don't see how being a tad high is much different.

The only problem would be if it is meant to represent an altar, or if folks in the congregation might get the idea it's an altar, but it sounds like this is not the case. In our culture, we frequently serve meals from structures of that height. The island in my kitchen is a good example. Just last night, we used it to serve a meal to some friends from church, and except for being wider it looks a lot like the item in your picture.

 

[Alexander Suarez]

. . . lifting of the elements . . .This is meant to be an OPC congregation.

Michael,

Is there a local session for this congregation? Have you brought up your concerns with them?

Also, is there no aid to be found from the presbytery? You mentioned "lifting of the elements," something which is expressly forbidden in our Confession of Faith 29.4:

Private masses, or receiving this sacrament by a priest, or any other, alone; as likewise the denial of the cup to the people; worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about for adoration, and the reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this sacrament, and to the institution of Christ.

I would think the presbytery should like to know that a congregation among them is practicing something explicitly contrary to their Confession of Faith.

 

[jwithnell]

I would say trying to attach meaning to a hunk of wood is closer to a Roman superstition than anything protestant. A table is just another part of the sanctuary furniture, a rather unattractive one in this example.

As noted above, if it were in a Roman edifice, it would be an altar with a credence nearby and all manner of fair cloths, palls, and other funeral linens and a rood dividing this "sacred" space from the congregation.

The Westminter directory of public worship (1644) merely mentions a table conveniently placed and a fitting covering for it.

The Presbyterian practice emphasizes the preparation of those participating and the proper timing for the event in public worship. No mention is given to exact measurements.

 

[ZackF]

If a table is not to be used, what is? Are the elements to rest on the floor? Be held by someone during the entire service?

The remark about post V2 RC churches no longer creating altars with reliquaries is true. However, I'd check it just in case per Ed's suggestion.

 

[MW]

1 Cor. 10:21, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

It is strange that the two things mentioned by Paul are the two things missing in many communion services today.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

The Westminter directory of public worship (1644) merely mentions a table conveniently placed and a fitting covering for it.

It also mentions the communicants sitting about/at the table. You'd need some rather tall chairs to sit around the thing pictured in the OP.

 

[jwithnell]

It also mentions the communicants sitting about/at the table. You'd need some rather tall chairs to sit around the thing pictured in the OP.

I can appreciate that a few Presbyterian denominations have taken a sitting-around-the-table view. Given the historical context, it is more likely the issue is papist kneeling vs. sitting. And no-where is an instruction for height given. The only scriptural picture would be around 12-18 inches, low enough to recline around the table, unless couches of some kind were involved. Even that is not specified in either the scriptures or confession. A huge percentage of the wording has to do with the preparation, fencing, and the administration of a means of grace.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I think maybe an elephant in the room for all of us modern Christians is that it seems pretty clear the original communion practice was an actual meal eaten together. Is that something worth working towards once again?

 

[PhilalethesIrenaeus]

I think maybe an elephant in the room for all of us modern Christians is that it seems pretty clear the original communion practice was an actual meal eaten together. Is that something worth working towards once again?

In Thomas Boston's memoirs he always speaks of serving the tables or fencing the tables. Sometimes he lists how many or the length of them, but it seems the practice was always to accommodate everyone.

 

[RamistThomist]

I might be missing something, but this doesn't look like either a table or an altar. It looks like a stool for someone's kitchen.

 

[MyCrows]

It also mentions the communicants sitting about/at the table. You'd need some rather tall chairs to sit around the thing pictured in the OP.

Or just regular size barstools.

 

[Phil D.]

If it's from a RCC church, I'm betting it served as a small table for serving up "the host and chalice"... In which case do an exorcism - errr... rededication, and move on...

 

[Theoretical]

lifting of the elements, and use of the 2019 ACNA Book of Common Prayer communion service,

The first is eyebrow raising and nonconfessional as noted and the second is downright bizarre. What's the 2019 BCP communion service doing in an OPC? If you're going to borrow from the Anglicans, at least take from the 1662 or even better the Canadians did a modern language of the even more explicitly Reformed 1552.

My immediate thought is that the church's leadership is considering a move to ACNA.

 

[PhilalethesIrenaeus]

The first is eyebrow raising and nonconfessional as noted and the second is downright bizarre. What's the 2019 BCP communion service doing in an OPC? If you're going to borrow from the Anglicans, at least take from the 1662 or even better the Canadians did a modern language of the even more explicitly Reformed 1552.

My immediate thought is that the church's leadership is considering a move to ACNA.

Our yet to be installed, stated supply pastor is ACNA and introduced the 2019 BCP here. There isn't a whole lot to be done for it, no one else seems to mind.

 

[jwithnell]

I had missed the reference to lifting the elements. That's a direct contradiction of the WCF. Using an order of worship outside the BOCO is also dubious.

 

[Edward]

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him

I would note that the translation appended to your post doesn't actually say that.

It links to an ESV translation:

13 And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover.
14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him.
(emphasis supplied).

 

[ZackF]

I would note that the translation appended to your post doesn't actually say that.

It links to an ESV translation:

13 And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover.
14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him.
(emphasis supplied).

Didn’t “reclining” actually mean laying on the floor (or pillows)?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I think maybe an elephant in the room for all of us modern Christians is that it seems pretty clear the original communion practice was an actual meal eaten together. Is that something worth working towards once again?

The "actual meal" is simply context, not any part of the ordained ritual observance, which in the nature of the case is stylized, not literalistic. Same was true for Old Cov by the way, usually misconstrued today as rationale for adopting so-called communal feast trappings (and paedocommunion, a still greater error).

 

[Edward]

Didn’t “reclining” actually mean laying on the floor (or pillows)?

If I remember the illustrations from a National Geographic book from over a half century ago, the Roman practice used benches.