I may be late to the party and this may be something that's been around for a while, but I've recently been hearing the phrase "worships is warfare" more and more. My google fu has not been strong and I've not been able to unearth many, if any books, that deal with this concept. Blog posts abound, however, though the ones I have perused I didn't find particularly clear as to what the phrase actually means. Is anyone on the boards conversant with "worship is warfare" to the degree that you can explain the concept and direct me to resources that articulate what it actually means, at heart?
Worship is Warfare
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Frisian Gardener
Puritan Board Freshman
The phrase is in a 2005 book "The Wonder of Worship" by Darril Deaton. The Google preview doesn't give complete context, but the chapter heading cites 2 Chronicles 20:15-22, Jehosephat's army singing praises as they assault Ammon and Moab at Mount Seir.
I think the phrase was popularized by Douglas Wilson. This 2007 blog post claims that the means of grace present at corporate worship are the means by which we wage spiritual warfare following 2 Corinthians 10:4-5.
I know that Wilson is, to put it mildly, controversial here. Please don't shoot the messenger. If the direct link is against the rules, I will edit the post.
EDIT: Here's an article cited by the Aquila Report that synthesizes both these ideas.
I think the phrase was popularized by Douglas Wilson. This 2007 blog post claims that the means of grace present at corporate worship are the means by which we wage spiritual warfare following 2 Corinthians 10:4-5.
I know that Wilson is, to put it mildly, controversial here. Please don't shoot the messenger. If the direct link is against the rules, I will edit the post.
EDIT: Here's an article cited by the Aquila Report that synthesizes both these ideas.
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Thanks! That's a start!
Pomopu
Puritan Board Freshman
If it is warfare, that aspect is tangential to worship and not what it primarily is--because there is no warfare in heaven, the domain of worship consummated.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
They might be talking about the saints under the altar praying for justice.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Graduate
You've been careful to make it clear that context is important in this question. I'm not sure yet about the context, but I'm seeing other places in Scripture where praise and worship and particularly singing brings about military deliverance by the hand of God.
Here's a few verses that came to mind,
2 Chronicles 29:27 KJV
[27] And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.
2 Chronicles 20:21-22 KJV
[21] And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever. [22] And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
Psalm 66:1-5 KJV
[1] Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands: [2] Sing forth the honour of his name: Make his praise glorious. [3] Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! Through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. [4] All the earth shall worship thee, And shall sing unto thee; They shall sing to thy name. Selah. [5] Come and see the works of God: He is terrible in his doing toward the children of men.
Psalm 149:5-9 KJV
[5] Let the saints be joyful in glory: Let them sing aloud upon their beds. [6] Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a twoedged sword in their hand; [7] To execute vengeance upon the heathen, And punishments upon the people; [8] To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; [9] To execute upon them the judgment written: This honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Most likely 2Cor.10:4-5 is a NT locus on which this regard us pegged, and it isn't surprising DW has made hay with the idea, thereby tainting one legitimate metaphor or description with his obsession.
The church on earth is "militant," battling. The gathered saints are the "hosts" of the Lord, along with the angels and the saints above. The people of Israel marched out of Egypt like an army, as they headed for their worship location. There is a sense which our seemingly simple assembly acts are one thing to the eye, and astonishingly vigorous and combative when seen by faith and spiritual insight.
One thing I suspect is different in what I'm proposing from what DW encourages is his pugnacious peremptory employment of imprecations against persons and institutions he perceives as his earthly opposition. He wants them destroyed. No "killing them with kindness" in the assaults taking place in his pews. The inversion of expectation is removed when the peaceful assembly is converted into an actual war rally, with the church on one side planning to steamroll the competition before the eschaton. Let's save the imprecatory prayers for the enemy within us (our flesh) and infesting our congregations, for the Devil, and sparingly and with sorrow for the world when its actual oppression of us becomes deadly.
The church on earth is "militant," battling. The gathered saints are the "hosts" of the Lord, along with the angels and the saints above. The people of Israel marched out of Egypt like an army, as they headed for their worship location. There is a sense which our seemingly simple assembly acts are one thing to the eye, and astonishingly vigorous and combative when seen by faith and spiritual insight.
One thing I suspect is different in what I'm proposing from what DW encourages is his pugnacious peremptory employment of imprecations against persons and institutions he perceives as his earthly opposition. He wants them destroyed. No "killing them with kindness" in the assaults taking place in his pews. The inversion of expectation is removed when the peaceful assembly is converted into an actual war rally, with the church on one side planning to steamroll the competition before the eschaton. Let's save the imprecatory prayers for the enemy within us (our flesh) and infesting our congregations, for the Devil, and sparingly and with sorrow for the world when its actual oppression of us becomes deadly.
The singing of Psalms with understanding in public worship is warfare, as is preaching, the reading aloud of Scripture, and prayer.
This is a statement without an explanation, I’m looking for the explanation which has been entirely lacking in most of what I’ve read.
Pomopu
Puritan Board Freshman
That's because to the extent worship is warefare it is so on the very edges of its essential and functional border, particularly because a biblical theology of worship recognizes from its genesis in a garden (warfareless) to its telos in the New Garden someday to come (warfareless) the main, throbbing center of worship has nothing to do with warfare.
But yeah bro, I have no idea what people really mean either.
One of the most militaristic passages for God’s church is in Ephesians 6. Armor, swords, helmets, deadly enemies. The command? “Stand.”
Not charge. Not take prisoners. Stand. The church militant stands with their commander and only powerful victor. No personal sorties for personal glory.
Not charge. Not take prisoners. Stand. The church militant stands with their commander and only powerful victor. No personal sorties for personal glory.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I'm no softie, and I'm more willing than some others to engage in real combat... yet despite my militaristic proclivities, I don’t like that phrase… and though I acknowledge I could be wrong here, nonetheless: I think referring to worship as warfare is off-base.
I get it that some want to underscore the countercultural nature of worship as being a form of pushing back on the enemy (that is, cultural forces)... but I think the phrase itself misconstrues the point, purpose, and postures of worship.
Warfare is part of the Christian life - amen. And worship is part of the Christian life - amen. So there is overlap thus I can see why one would argue that there are aspects of "warfare" in the act of worship. But while there is overlap between the various aspects of the Christian life (because the Christian life can and should be viewed holistically) nonetheless the various activities and actions of our life can be distinguished - the way the Sabbath is distinguished from the rest of the week, and the way formal/congregational worship is distinguished from the "all of life" worship mentioned in Romans 12:1.
The called worship on the Sabbath is special, as the Sabbath itself is special. When we go in to worship - we are going in not to fight with the world nor even ourselves or the devil. That's a task for the normal business of the Christian life. But rather, when we go in to worship we are approaching the throne of grace, basking in the presence of our Father by the Spirit through our Mediator. Let all strivings cease. We lay down our weapons and lift up holy hands to praise, adore, magnify... and be fed by Him. I think Heb 4 - the Sabbath, with its call to cease from our labors and worship - points us to something other than warfare, it points us to rest. So I'd suggest that while someone may successfully argue at some level that "worship is warfare"... to make that the driving motif or idea of what is happening in worship, or the point of worship, or even a primary byproduct of worship, is to miss the point. Worship is rest.
I get it that some want to underscore the countercultural nature of worship as being a form of pushing back on the enemy (that is, cultural forces)... but I think the phrase itself misconstrues the point, purpose, and postures of worship.
Warfare is part of the Christian life - amen. And worship is part of the Christian life - amen. So there is overlap thus I can see why one would argue that there are aspects of "warfare" in the act of worship. But while there is overlap between the various aspects of the Christian life (because the Christian life can and should be viewed holistically) nonetheless the various activities and actions of our life can be distinguished - the way the Sabbath is distinguished from the rest of the week, and the way formal/congregational worship is distinguished from the "all of life" worship mentioned in Romans 12:1.
The called worship on the Sabbath is special, as the Sabbath itself is special. When we go in to worship - we are going in not to fight with the world nor even ourselves or the devil. That's a task for the normal business of the Christian life. But rather, when we go in to worship we are approaching the throne of grace, basking in the presence of our Father by the Spirit through our Mediator. Let all strivings cease. We lay down our weapons and lift up holy hands to praise, adore, magnify... and be fed by Him. I think Heb 4 - the Sabbath, with its call to cease from our labors and worship - points us to something other than warfare, it points us to rest. So I'd suggest that while someone may successfully argue at some level that "worship is warfare"... to make that the driving motif or idea of what is happening in worship, or the point of worship, or even a primary byproduct of worship, is to miss the point. Worship is rest.
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I have in mind such places in Scripture as
Psalm 149:5-9 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
And that as Christ rides forth conquering and to conquer, it is through his praying and obedient church that he does so. The great commission is a conquering of Satanic forces and of men’s hearts for Christ.
Every time we pray for God’s kingdom to come and his will be done on earth, or beseech him to send laborers into the harvest, we’re in a sense waging an offensive in warfare.
All having nothing to do with any Doug Wilson or other silliness, of course. This warfare is waged by the meek and poor of the earth who know both their own insufficiency and God’s great power.
Psalm 149:5-9 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
And that as Christ rides forth conquering and to conquer, it is through his praying and obedient church that he does so. The great commission is a conquering of Satanic forces and of men’s hearts for Christ.
Every time we pray for God’s kingdom to come and his will be done on earth, or beseech him to send laborers into the harvest, we’re in a sense waging an offensive in warfare.
All having nothing to do with any Doug Wilson or other silliness, of course. This warfare is waged by the meek and poor of the earth who know both their own insufficiency and God’s great power.
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
Ya. Wilson certainly apostatized. Now he's running around with my Great Uncle (John Lindell, a false teacher in Missouri) but that is not what determines whether his statements are true.
Reformed Catholic
Puritan Board Freshman
"Apostatized"? Are you sure this is not too strong a word to use? The only reason I could see someone using such a word, given that Doug Wilson has come nowhere close to abandoning faith in Christ, is slander and insult. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
Oops! My apologies. I got my names mixed up. I was referring to Mark Driscoll. I have nothing against Doug Wilson.
Probably should have. Neither is a safe guide.
Other than the 4-5 noteworthy Presbyterian & Reformed denominations that have identified his core (FV) teaching as major error, a corruption of the gospel?
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
I just know very little about Wilson, so I don't have anything against him. I know more about Driscoll because I am very familiar with Piper (who had kind of taken Driscoll under his wing, until Driscoll left). Ands then Driscoll fled into the same camp of heretics as my uncle, so I have some connection.
Could you explain his core error brother?
In by grace; stay in by cooperation with grace.
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
So, let me see if I can accurately unpack what you're saying. Wilson says that to remain in grace we must cooperate with it? That is very problematic. That shifts the souls dependance from Christ, to self. Not good!
Right, that's what waiting on a "final justification based on works/life lived" gets you. Also: Piper's misshapen doctrine.
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
You'll have to explain where Piper has gone wrong. We do have the evidence of faith, which is works, particularly mercy (as per James 2). But these do not justify, but rather they are the invariable proof of genuine faith.
(I must clarify, I have a LOT of respect for Piper, he's the one the LORD used to show my parents the doctrine of grace. I do not agree with him on every point. But I feel he has been used of God to show me the beauties of Christ).
It's his "final justification" doctrine to defend, not mine to explain. He's in error. Better men than I have recognized it. You wrote elsewhere how you like his preaching, so it's fitting to make a note that his theology aligns at this point with DW and contra the Reformation.
Ben_Leevey
Puritan Board Freshman
Brother, I just don't know what you are referring to. If anybody can explain the problem, I am eager to hear. I do find his preaching beneficial, but for that matter, I also find Macarthur's preaching edifying, oftentimes. Someone doesn't have to perfectly align with my theology to be a genuine brother. Now, if they're speaking heresy, that's different.
True.
Reformed Catholic
Puritan Board Freshman
Even if what you're saying is right, is "apostatized" the best word to use? Why not use words that are more accurate, like "erred" instead of emotionally charged words that will have the most venomous sting to them
John Piper, Future Grace: The Purifying Power of the Promises of God, rev. ed. (New York: Multnomah, 2012)—A Thorough Review - The Heidelblog
Pastor John Piper is well-known for his role in sparking the “young, restless, and Reformed” movement, mainly through his emphases on God’s sovereignty and serious expository preaching. There are no doubt numerous present members of Reformed churches who ended up there because of initial...
heidelblog.net
Read it all including the comments section.
Now to all, back on topic please...
The Love of God is displayed and spoken of in various ways as you know. When it comes to justification and sanctification the Love of God and our responses to that love matter. Justification is by faith alone period. We are called upon to work out our salvation when it comes to sanctification as we have been set free and regenerated.
Mark Jones does an excellent job giving historical context and solid reformed teaching in the following. Grace is not just some passive acceptance of sinners. There is more to grace. It causes us to respond to God both monergistically and synergistically.
Anyways... give this a read if you have the time.
rpcnacovenanter.com
Mark Jones does an excellent job giving historical context and solid reformed teaching in the following. Grace is not just some passive acceptance of sinners. There is more to grace. It causes us to respond to God both monergistically and synergistically.
Anyways... give this a read if you have the time.
The Love of God
Taken from Mark Jones Chapter 6 Antinomianism. Thank You for allowing me to post this Mark Jones. Get this book. It is so important for our generation to understand these things. Especial…
rpcnacovenanter.com
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