When Is Nationalism Just Plain Stupid?

[Blueridge Believer]

Think of the message you just sent. It blasphemes the God of Heaven. God did not send his Son so men could dwell in peace and happiness, He sent Him to pay the price for sin and save mens souls from the flames of Hell. To compare what Jesus Christ did on the cross of Calvery with what a GI does on a battle field of blasphemy of the highest sort. Jesus didn't come to kill for the state. The state was used by the religious leaders of the day to kill Him.
----- Original Message -----
Think of The Message








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A mother asked President Bush,

"Why did my son have to die in Iraq?"

Another mother asked President Kennedy,

"Why did my son have to die in Viet Nam?"

Another mother asked President Truman,

"Why did my son have to die in Korea?

Another mother asked President F.D. Roosevelt,

"Why did my son have to die at Iwo Jima?"

Another mother asked President W. Wilson,

"Why did my son have to die on the battlefield of France?"

Yet another mother asked President Lincoln,

"Why did my son have to die at Gettysburg?"

And yet another mother asked President G. Washington,

"Why did my son have to die near Valley Forge?"

Then long, long ago, a mother asked...
"Heavenly Father, why did my Son have to die
on a cross outside of Jerusalem?"

The answers to all these are similar --

"So that others may have life and dwell in peace,
happiness and freedom."

This was emailed to me with no author
and I thought the magnitude
and the simplicity were awesome .

Love to All

IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS,
PLEASE, FEEL FREE...
TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!!!!

 

[Blueridge Believer]

This was an e-mail between my arminian, dispenstionalist, my country drunk or sober flag waving nationalist brother. I get bombarded with this kind of stuff daily from my "religious" family members.

 

[RamistThomist]

When is nationalism wrong? Always. As I define the terms--and I don't think my definition is too arbitrary--patriotism is love for one's land, nationalism is fanatical loyalty to the State.

Rushdoony was perceptive on this. I was listening to his lectures on Medieval and Reformation history. He was talking about the rise of nationalism in Europe. He said thsi is where most Conservatives go way wrong. They automatically think Nationalism is good. But WWII was a fight between Socialistic Nationalism and Socialistic Internationalism (that's oversimplifying, btw but the point stands). Rushdoony said the correct response was "A plague on both your houses!"

 

[Blueridge Believer]

When is nationalism wrong? Always. As I define the terms--and I don't think my definition is too arbitrary--patriotism is love for one's land, nationalism is fanatical loyalty to the State.

Rushdoony was perceptive on this. I was listening to his lectures on Medieval and Reformation history. He was talking about the rise of nationalism in Europe. He said thsi is where most Conservatives go way wrong. They automatically think Nationalism is good. But WWII was a fight between Socialistic Nationalism and Socialistic Internationalism (that's oversimplifying, btw but the point stands). Rushdoony said the correct response was "A plague on both your houses!"

 

[Pergamum]

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?

 

[Blueridge Believer]

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?

Not in our church. However, you're a horrible heretic among some baptists of the fundamental sort if you don't have one beside the pulpit. I've seem them have the pledge of allegience during a service. Some will go as far as to "church" you if you don't vote republican.

 

[RamistThomist]

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?

Not mine. "No King but Jesus!"

 

[LadyFlynt]

I would throw a rip roaring fit (well, a silent steaming one anyhow) if there was one in ours. I do have a CSA flag in our schoolroom.

 

[caddy]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but this brings up some ugly questions which run the party lines.

It is a pandora's box: Right to Life vs. "A Women's Choice."

While specific parties cannot be preached for or against in the Pulpit, issues can. I may offend many by my admisson of being Republican, but it is a simple matter of which party is closer to truth and a culture of life.

Some will go as far as to "church" you if you don't vote republican.

 

[caddy]

I do have a CSA flag in our schoolroom.

 

[Pergamum]

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation.

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

 

[Blueridge Believer]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but this brings up some ugly questions which run the party lines.

It is a padora's box: Right to Life vs. "A Women's Choice."

While specific parties cannot be preached for or against in the Pulpit, issues can. I may offend many by my admisson of being Republican, but it is a simple matter of which party is closer to truth and a culture of life.

That's a matter of concience for you dear brother. Personally, I feel that all politicians, regardless of thier party should be limited to two terms. The first term in office and the second in jail!

 

[Theoretical]

That's truly sad - no wonder you were utterly disturbed by that kind of a response.

 

[caddy]

All I can say is:

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation.

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

 

[Blueridge Believer]

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation.

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

God help us! If that isn't apostacy I don't know what is.

 

[caddy]

I am with you there brother...

That's a matter of concience for you dear brother. Personally, I feel that all politicians, regardless of thier party should be limited to two terms. The first term in office and the second in jail!

 

[LadyFlynt]

It's a schoolroom, not a church....and the flag was a gift from a friend. Basically, it's "because I can" Looking for a Scottish flag also if anyone has one...

 

[Blueridge Believer]

It's a schoolroom, not a church....and the flag was a gift from a friend. Basically, it's "because I can" Looking for a Scottish flag also if anyone has one...

I have the stars and bars on my wall as well dear lady!

 

[KenPierce]

We've been thus far able to resist that. IT helps that our pulpit area is very cramped! We do, however, have them in the fellowship hall --since it's not used for worship, it's not as big of a deal. I'd rather not have them anywhere!

And, it's not because I am anything other than patriotic!

 

[Blueridge Believer]

Good morning brother Ken! Did you sleep late today? How are you brother?

 

[Blue Tick]

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?

My former Dispensational church had the American, Christian, and Israeli flag.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

My former Dispensational church had the, American, Christian, and Israeli flag.

typical. Haggee's Church had, "Israel Night"

 

[py3ak]

Trevor, that's about the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. Thanks for sharing.
And everyone can consider my unpatriotic if they like.

 

[Pilgrim]

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?

Not in mine.

 

[Pilgrim]

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation.

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

I think it's pretty clear by their response what their religion is. I think it can be termed The American Religion, or Civil Religion.

Its particularly ironic coming from a denomination that has always trumpeted separation of church and state. Another questionable occurence was the reported thunderous applause at this year's convention for a live (via satellite, I think) speech from "pro-choice" Secretary of State Rice.

 

[Pilgrim]

To rephrase the thread title a bit, when does nationalism equal idolatry?

 

[Herald]

To rephrase the thread title a bit, when does nationalism equal idolatry?

Chris, your rephrasing does change the tenor of the discussion.

When love of country supplants love of God, then you have idolatry. It is possible to "love" ones country to the edge of fanaticism. I am reminded of the Bolshevik's who fought on behalf of "Mother Russia." Now, we may have cut them a little slack if they used this mantra as a rallying cry during their armed revolution, but it continued as their mode of governing. In essence it became worship of the state. Idolatry. But even a good cause can be idolatrous. If involvement in civic government robs much needed time from God you are involved in a form of idolatry.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation.

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

I hadn't really checked in on this thread before. You know what is interesting about that "dance" is that you could videotape that and show that to people relatively unfamiliar with American Evangelicals and say "...this pretty much sums it up...."

I was deployed to Korea in August and my wife helped out with the Vacation Bible School at our Church. I'm not a big fan of those things but we try not to be too obnoxious in our objection to a lot of the craziness that surrounds the SBC. Anyhow, they used the Southern Baptist Church curriculum for the VBS predictably.

As you all know, we live in Okinawa, Japan and part of the goal of the VBS is an outreach to the local community. Many Japanese children attend the VBS who otherwise do not attend the Church (nor do their families). I think their parents like the fact that they get to interact with American kids and learn a little English (we never have any families join as a result of the VBS but that's another story in itself).

Did I mention that we live in Japan?

Well at the beginning of each day's activiities. The children, according to the curriculum, line up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag. The person who put the curriculum together apparently didn't put two and two together before the VBS began nor throughout that she had a ton of Japanese children doing the same thing.

Did I mention that we live in Japan?

Worse, when their parents showed up on the last day of VBS on Friday they got to see their little children go through the motions of what it means to be a little "Christian" child. You guessed it, they lined the kids up and recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag.

Did I mention that we live in Japan?!

I was pretty ticked off about it when I found it but this is so typical. This is only emblematic of the way Americans export their theology in general. Neo-Pentecostal hand-waving to banal, repetitive rock praise choruses is what people think is normative here because white, middle-class Americans have exported their musical forms here too. It's just so frustrating.

 

[Pergamum]

Rich;

I think your example is even more outragious than mine!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Rich;

I think your example is even more outragious than mine!

I don't know, I honestly think the women who did it did so without thinking things through when they did it. Dancing in front of the American flag and bowing down to it in a Church: I would have flipped out.