Praise Worship
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
If it breaks the RPW, it is not pleasing.
Leviticus 10:1-2 KJV Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
elnwood
Puritan Board Junior
Ah, but the Regulative Principle is derived from Old Covenant temple worship, which, like the use of instruments, has passed away. 
But to try answer your question, there is such a broad spectrum of praise and worship music and how they are utilized in various churches that it is impossible to give a straight-up answer (unless you are exclusive psalmody and no instruments, like many here).
I highly recommend Sovereign Grace Ministries, which consistently puts out Christ-centered, biblically sound, theologically rich contemporary music.
But to try answer your question, there is such a broad spectrum of praise and worship music and how they are utilized in various churches that it is impossible to give a straight-up answer (unless you are exclusive psalmody and no instruments, like many here).
I highly recommend Sovereign Grace Ministries, which consistently puts out Christ-centered, biblically sound, theologically rich contemporary music.
Davidius
Inactive User
Ah, but the Regulative Principle is derived from Old Covenant temple worship, which, like the use of instruments, has passed away.
I don't see whom this kind of sarcasm benefits.
Don makes a good point here, John, one that goes along with what Scott already said. It is from God himself that we know what is acceptable in worship. He's made it clear in many places that we are not to "take away from or add to" that which he has commanded. This is the heart of the Regulative Principle of Worship. When we start to think that we know to worship God in a more acceptable way than he has prescribed, we end up with worship that is like today's "broad spectrum of praise and worship music." For that reason, Reformed Christians have historically, in the same way that they carefully searched the scriptures for "everything else pertaining to life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3) in other areas of doctrine, looked in the Bible for positive commands that are made explicitly or can be deduced from reasonable inference with regard to what is and isn't acceptable in the worship of God.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
David, Don finished off his benign 'tweak' with a winking smiley. Do the smiley's show up in your browser? I think 'sarcasm' is too harsh of an accusation for you to make. Don was being playful or at least that's the way I understood it. With all the quibbling we do here I'm all for playfulness on occasion.
Davidius
Inactive User
my apologies! we have been debating that exact issue on another thread so it seemed like a low-blow of sorts. I'll make sure to take such things with a grain of salt in the future.
elnwood
Puritan Board Junior
With respect to the issues of the Regulative Principle and Contemporary Worship, I tend to follow John Frame's thinking. He is a Reformed seminary professor and musician, and has authored "Worship in Spirit and Truth" and "Contemporary Worship Music: A Biblical Defense."
providenceboard
Puritan Board Freshman
No.
That this question even has to be asked shows that it is non-inspired hymn singers that are dividing the church concerning worship. I am able to go to ANY psalm singing church and will agree 100% with their singing element of worship.
When I was a non-inspired hymn singer, we (at my non-inspired hymn singing church) were always sayning, "their songs are too rowdy, their songs are too stodgy, their songs are disrespectful" about other churches singing and that "We know exactly the list of non-inspired hymns and tunes that God actually likes".
Those wern't EXACTLY the words we used but you understand the point that I am trying to make.
Ah, but the Regulative Principle is derived from Old Covenant temple worship, which, like the use of instruments, has passed away.
I know you are making a joke here, but I think it is important to clarify your statement to be fair. The RPW is not derived from Old Covenant temple worship (as is demonstrated by the fact that it is illustrated before the temple was construcetd). Rather, proponents of the RPW believe it is derived by implication from the second commandment and therefore is grounded in the moral law and the nature of God himself.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
God, through Christ, is the author and perfecter of our faith and all our righteousness (including ANY intent of our worship) is as filthy rags - if your worship music is God centered and Spirit led, it will be pleasing to God, since He will MAKE it pleasing through Christ.
Malachi 3:1-3
Grace and Peace.
Malachi 3:1-3
Grace and Peace.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Davidius
Inactive User
What exactly do you mean by God-centered and Spirit led if you don't mean that we derive our elements/content of worship from the scriptures themselves? Is our worship so when we sincerely desire to honor God with it? I'm sure that Uzzah was very sincere in his desire to honor God by not letting His Ark of the Covenant fall into the dirt when he touched it to keep it from doing so. Yet what was God's response?
There are two pitfalls we can fall into. We can worship God in ways He has explicitly commanded and do it without having it be sincere and from our hearts. We can also think that anything is acceptable as long as it is "sincere" with a "real desire to honor God," and that he'll just make-up for our mistakes by cherishing our sincerity. The Scriptures say we are to worship God in spirit and in truth. We must do what God has commanded and we must do that with sincerity.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Do you think Uzzah was filled with the Holy Spirit?
I did not say that anything was acceptable - only that which is God centered and guided by the Holy Spirit. (John 16:13)
Our sincerity is as filthy rags before God. So is our righteousness. He perfects our worship despite our failings.
God has explicitly put in His word to sing a new song to Him. (and trust me when I say - I have heard the "new is not really new" arguments.)
John Frame's thinking in this book on the RPW guts the historical meaning of the RPW, redefines it, then passes it on as his "perspective". He would have won many more over if he stiffened his backbone a little and just flat out denied the RPW as each and every Reformed church has understood it to be.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
JD,
If God perfects worship through Christ, all worship with Christ in mind, must be acceptable.........is this correct?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
If it is guided by the Holy Spirit - otherwise it is not worship.
(couple of quick references: 1 Corinthians 14:15 and Romans 8:5)
Davidius
Inactive User
How is that verse relevant to the discussion?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
How does one know that what they are offering to God in worship is 'guided' by the HS?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Sorry, I was adding another reference.
Simply that the human mind is not sufficient - neither is the human spirit - without the Holy Spirit's guidance.
Davidius
Inactive User
In context, isn't Paul talking about his own spirit instead of the Holy Spirit? and isn't he referring to speaking in tongues?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I know where you are going, brother and I agree that Scripture is the rule of faith and practice.
Sing to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord all the Earth!
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Do you think they were not trying to worship by speaking in tongues?
Davidius
Inactive User
It sounds from the context of the whole chapter that he's referring to delivering revelation to the people. After having been convinced of Cessationism I'm confused as to what I should be looking to glean from passages such as 1 Cor 14, honestly. But I assure you that it was an honest question.
Regardless, even if they were trying to worship instead of instruct and bring new revelation, Paul still mentions his own spirit, not the Holy Spirit.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This is at the root of your premise; How do you know that your worship is guided by the HS?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I understand - not trying to be argumentative - but my point was more to use the verse to demonstrate that OUR efforts - spirit and mind (one can reason that just praying with the mind would be just as ineffective as praying just with the spirit) - are ineffective (to your sincerity point) - unless they are guided by the Holy Spirit - I appreciated that my point could be missed, so I added an additional Scripture to clarify - perhaps I should have been clearer initially.
Paul was speaking in this context:
1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
apologies.
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panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Because it is confirmed by Scripture.
Note this as an example of a new song that I believe was guided by the Holy Spirit and I believe is confirmed by Scripture.
elnwood
Puritan Board Junior
I know. I still think he's right. It certainly isn't the historical view of the RPW, but I think his use of the term "regulative principle" is apt because it is based on obeying only what God commands.
For those who don't know the crux of his argument, it's basically that the regulative principle applies to all of the Christian life (since the whole of the Christian life is worship), and not just to Sunday worship, whereas the historical view draws a distinction, essentially applying a regulative principle to Sunday worship and a normative principle to the rest of life.
So essentially Frame broadens the scope of regulative principle to all of life and adds latitude for good and necessary inferences.
Does that sound accurate, mangum?
jaybird0827
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
It may be an accurate of what Frame says. But by "adding latitude for good and necessary inferences" he's admitting things into the worship of God that you cannot require men to do them because it goes against conscience that is guided by the word of God. What is not commanded or authorized is not to be done.
What's being described is de facto normative. That disrupts the unity of the church, because some of us will be required to abstain from doing certain things that Dr. Frame advocates. So much for the unity of believers at worship.
jaybird0827
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
See Romans 12:1-2, Ephesians 5:18 ff, Colossians 3:16. God has provided 150 of these new songs for the church to sing and is pleased when we sing these new songs in union with him (Psalm 22:22).
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