History of KJV and TR

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OK, will someone who is willing to answer my question without the conviction that they are betraying God by doing so, answer the question: what is the Providence by which the manuscript choices were made that people use to form what they consider to be the authoritative Greek Scriptures?
 
Andrew,

Let's not get bogged down here. Rev Winzer knows he is only an advocate of the AV. The rest of us know that too.
 
Sir, are you aware that you are a KJV only advocate.

No. Are you aware of the difference between KJV only and KJV preferred? I believe it is faith to be able to identify the Word of God, and faithfulness to adhere to it. You may as well tell me that I can live with a faulty confession as a faulty Bible.

Is this ignorance? Now, please correct me if i'm wrong, but "ms" means manuscript right? If so, to say that God's Word exists independent of ms. evidence is to cover your eyes and plug your ears.

Yes, I do believe God has preserved His Word through the ages, but at the same time He used us, as vessels, to pass down His Word from generation to generation. Now is the time, if ever, to be critical about texts we have. We have so many manuscripts; and with lots of prayer, I believe God has improved the English translations through the older manuscripts that we have now today then they did in the 17th century.

On the basis of this theory we have no supreme standard of faith. If the standard is determined by men, it has no means of correcting men.
 
OK, will someone who is willing to answer my question without the conviction that they are betraying God by doing so, answer the question: what is the Providence by which the manuscript choices were made that people use to form what they consider to be the authoritative Greek Scriptures?

Rich, are you willing to go back a few steps further. Why do you believe John 3:16. Had you even heard of the idea of traditional and critical texts before you believed it?
 
OK, will someone who is willing to answer my question without the conviction that they are betraying God by doing so, answer the question: what is the Providence by which the manuscript choices were made that people use to form what they consider to be the authoritative Greek Scriptures?

Brother, you would have to do research on such things as "The majority text" and the "alexandrian text."

Here's a good site that talks about many translations and greek texts:

http://www.bible-researcher.com
 
Rich, are you willing to go back a few steps further. Why do you believe John 3:16. Had you even heard of the idea of traditional and critical texts before you believed it?

Brother, that's not the issue here. God's sovreignty and textual criticism are to seperate areas. First and foremost, God will save people through the message of the gospel. Secondly, once saved, we have the liberty to choose a translation. Knowing the source of the translation is something, I believe, is a must for every believer and criticising texts, used by certain translations is hard, I will admit I know little compared to others, but the time and research spent into this has been a blessing to me; knowing that the translation I picked is accurate, rather then "thoughtful". (I'm saying that literal translations are a must and though-for-thought translations, or "equivalent dynamics", need to be done away with.)
 
Andrew,

I think Rich is well informed on textual issues...I think that he is merely drawing out why men such as Rev. Winzer and myself and brother Rafalsky hold to the TR...which both of these men are more qualified, and tend to have more time than I do to discuss. Otherwise, I might jump into this rehash of 100,000 previous threads.
 
Brother, that's not the issue here. God's sovreignty and textual criticism are to seperate areas. First and foremost, God will save people through the message of the gospel. Secondly, once saved, we have the liberty to choose a translation. Knowing the source of the translation is something, I believe, is a must for every believer and criticising texts, used by certain translations is hard, I will admit I know little compared to others, but the time and research spent into this has been a blessing to me; knowing that the translation I picked is accurate, rather then "thoughtful". (I'm saying that literal translations are a must and though-for-thought translations, or "equivalent dynamics", need to be done away with.)

This is precisely the issue; and God's sovereignty is as much regulative of the text of Scripture as any other area of life. I do not buy into this Thomistic idea that scholarship moves on neutral ground, which is neither here nor there to faith.

You count and date mss. today which leads you to accept a certain text of Scripture. Those mss. probably only account for about 1/1000th of the total mss. that have been created over the centuries. What would you do in a years time if a mass of scholars told you they had discovered another 2/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is precisely 9/10ths of what you had accepted as Scripture. Then in two years time they discover another 5/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is merely 8/10ths, and so on and so forth. And what if it so happens that of the newly edited NT, it turned out there was no ms. evidence for the doctrine of the Deity of Christ? Would you be somewhat suspicious of the so-called "assured results" of scholarship then?
 
This is precisely the issue; and God's sovereignty is as much regulative of the text of Scripture as any other area of life. I do not buy into this Thomistic idea that scholarship moves on neutral ground, which is neither here nor there to faith.

You count and date mss. today which leads you to accept a certain text of Scripture. Those mss. probably only account for about 1/1000th of the total mss. that have been created over the centuries. What would you do in a years time if a mass of scholars told you they had discovered another 2/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is precisely 9/10ths of what you had accepted as Scripture. Then in two years time they discover another 5/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is merely 8/10ths, and so on and so forth. And what if it so happens that of the newly edited NT, it turned out there was no ms. evidence for the doctrine of the Deity of Christ? Would you be somewhat suspicious of the so-called "assured results" of scholarship then?

Brother, the reality of it is that we do have mss. God has preserved His word. There are no "what ifs" but rather there is reality. Therefore, we, as human beings, and guidance from God, can only conclude what mss are more accurate by comparing them to other mss. Alot of the mss are consistent with one another in what they say, but there are some out there that we must disregard because of the nonsense that is on them. For example, some of the mss contain Gnostic writings. Would you want Gnostic writings in your bible? That's why we must be critical about certain manuscripts.
 
This is precisely the issue; and God's sovereignty is as much regulative of the text of Scripture as any other area of life. I do not buy into this Thomistic idea that scholarship moves on neutral ground, which is neither here nor there to faith.

You count and date mss. today which leads you to accept a certain text of Scripture. Those mss. probably only account for about 1/1000th of the total mss. that have been created over the centuries. What would you do in a years time if a mass of scholars told you they had discovered another 2/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is precisely 9/10ths of what you had accepted as Scripture. Then in two years time they discover another 5/1000th of mss. evidence, and it indicates that the NT is merely 8/10ths, and so on and so forth. And what if it so happens that of the newly edited NT, it turned out there was no ms. evidence for the doctrine of the Deity of Christ? Would you be somewhat suspicious of the so-called "assured results" of scholarship then?

I have two issues with the above:

1. The hypothetical that paints the doomsday scenario. In the four centuries since the AV1611 came out we have far, far less than 10% of the text that has been challenged as being original. Your argument produces the "shock and awe" that it is intended to produce: Every 2 years the text changes by 10%?! Run for the hills!

2. You are perfectly willing to talk about how modern scholarship is messing up the process of how the selected texts but you be-knight the process that people used in the 17th Century and place it beyond discussion and above reproach. You won't even discuss the issue of whether a parallel corruption might have occured and whether Erasmus might have erred in a few choices he made.

You see, I'm willing to grant that I don't buy all the scientific arguments that say that "we know this to be true because 9 times out of 10 this error occurs". I don't want to turn the process over to scientists either.

I just find a bit of unwillingness for the TR folk to look in their back yard and see if the "scientific" method that translators made way back when were dubious or not. They act as if this generation is the first to make mistakes.
 
Rich, it is not a matter of percentage per annum, but of whether the money should be put into that unsafe bank at all. Andrew, please let me know when the scholars have tracked down the ms. which we can all put our trust in. Blessings, gentlemen!
 
Rich, it is not a matter of percentage per annum, but of whether the money should be put into that unsafe bank at all. Andrew, please let me know when the scholars have tracked down the ms. which we can all put our trust in. Blessings, gentlemen!

Honestly, I think you're engaging in sophistry here.

I guess I've always thought of the refining process as being under the governance of God's Providential hand. I believe, in history, He rescued His Church from years of darkness under a false Gospel. A Jesuit might fold his arms at me and state: "Do let me know when you discover a doctrine of Justification that you can settle on. We had one that was just fine for 1000 years."

If God can refine His Church and rescue her from a false understanding of Justification then He can certainly perfect His Word by exposing obvious errors to us that occured during the process of "settling" the text in the 17th Century.

Thus, do let me know when I can stop counting on God to be working all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes.
 
If God can refine His Church and rescue her from a false understanding of Justification then He can certainly perfect His Word by exposing obvious errors to us that occured during the process of "settling" the text in the 17th Century.

I assert the Word of God IS perfect. Our Confession speaks of "the entire perfection thereof." I can't remember reading any reformed divine which thought of this as a process.
 
Rev. Winzer,

I don't want to argue with you on the perfection of Scripture. I believe God's Word is inspired and perfect.

I just have a hard time understanding how the Word of God existed for people who only had Mss. that were "imperfect" until the AV translators pulled them all together to produce it.

Were the Monks who read Sinaticus all those years able to trust that what they were reading was the Word of God?

I apologize for letting this degenerate on my part. I do hold you in high esteem and consider you to be a man of great integrity.
 
Were the Monks who read Sinaticus all those years able to trust that what they were reading was the Word of God?

They showed what they thought of Sinaiticus when they threw it in the waste paper basket. ;)

Blessings, Rich. You are a good brother.
 
They showed what they thought of Sinaiticus when they threw it in the waste paper basket. ;)
I have no desire to get into this argument, but the statement above is one of the most ignorant remarks I have ever seen. You owe it to yourself to correct it, winky eye or not.

DTK
 
I have no desire to get into this argument, but the statement above is one of the most ignorant remarks I have ever seen. You owe it to yourself to correct it, winky eye or not.

Perhaps you haven't had to listen to some of the ignorant remarks I have been privy to. If so, you would understand my natural inclination to see your evaluation as classic over-exaggeration. Since the leisureliness of my statement appears offensive to you, I will retract it and replace it with a quotation -- quotations from authorities usually meet with academic approval.

I am utterly unable to believe, in short, that God’s promise has so entirely failed, that at the end of 1800 years much of the text of the Gospel had in point of fact to be picked up by a German critic out of a waste-paper basket in the convent of St. Catherine; and that the entire text had to be remodelled after the pattern set by a couple of copies which had remained in neglect during fifteen centuries, and had probably owed their survival to that neglect; whilst hundreds of others had been thumbed to pieces, and had bequeathed their witness to copies made from them." [Dean Burgon, The Traditional Text, p. 12]
 
Perhaps you haven't had to listen to some of the ignorant remarks I have been privy to. If so, you would understand my natural inclination to see your evaluation as classic over-exaggeration. Since the leisureliness of my statement appears offensive to you, I will retract it and replace it with a quotation -- quotations from authorities usually meet with academic approval.
I'm not interested in some of the ignorant remarks to which you've listened. It is excusable for a laymen to make such mistakes, but not for one who should know better, but is unwilling to investigate that claim beyond Burgon. Following the incident that Tischendorf observed of the burning of mss., Sinaiticus was discovered on his revisit to the monastery.

Bruce M. Metzger: In 1853 Tischendorf revisited the monastery of St. Catharine, hoping to acquire other portions of the same manuscript. The excitement which he had displayed on the occasion of his discovery during his first visit had made the monks cautious, and he could learn nothing further about the manuscript. In 1859 his travels took him back once more to Mount Sinai, this time under the patronage of the Czar of Russia, Alexander II. The day before he was scheduled to leave he presented to the steward of the monastery a copy of the edition of the Septuagint which he had recently published in Leipzig. Thereupon the steward remarked that he too had a copy of the Septuagint, and produced from a closet in his cell a manuscript (i.e., codex Sinaiticus) wrapped in a red cloth. There before the astonished scholar’s eyes lay the treasure which he had been longing to see. Concealing his feelings, Tischendorf casually asked permission to look at it further that evening. Permission was granted, and upon retiring to his room Tischendorf stayed up all night in the joy of studying the manuscript—for, as he declared in his diary (which as a scholar he kept in Latin), quipped dormire nefas videbatur (‘it really seemed a sacrilege to sleep’)! He soon found that the document contained much more than he had even hoped; for not only was most of the Old Testament there, but also the New Testament was intact and in excellent condition, with the addition of two early Christian works of the second century, the Epistle of Barnabas (previously known only through a very poor Latin translation) and a large portion of the Shepherd of Hermas, hitherto known only by title.
The next morning Tischendorf tried to buy the manuscript, but without success. Then he asked to be allowed to take it to Cairo to study; but the monk in charge of the altar plate objected, and so he had to leave without it. Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, third, enlarged ed. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992), pp. 43-44.
You have tried to reduce Rich's honest questions directed to you as if they lead to doubt and confusion over both the text and canon, instead of engaging them in a meaningful way. I guess jokingly dismissing his inquiries is a sign of piety to you, but it has yet to offer him anything but you own bias for a particular text. Burgon was a very godly man, but his critical remarks for Tischendorf's discovery doesn't make for the best reporting of history. Sinaiticus was not recovered from a waste-paper basket, and yes I have his books on my shelf, but it doesn't mean that he got his "facts" right. And you would serve yourself well to look beyond Erasmus and Burgon, instead of trying to argue that Rich's faith in the text and canon of Holy Scripture lies in the hands of men.

You can do better than this.

DTK
 
DTK, Well either it is the most ignorant statement you have heard or it is not. The person making the statement should not influence the decision. The fact that the legend has a scholarly background should at least give you pause before making the outlandish claim. And even if it is mere legend, the rescue at the eleventh hour seemed to serve the purposes of the codex's advocates at the time, only for it to be discredited when it was turned against them.

This is a discussion board, DTK. Light remarks are part and parcel of discussion. I added the smiley to indicate it was a light remark. You will just have to accept it as such.

As for my approach to Rich, I have done the best I can in the limited time and scope of this forum. If you can do better, please be my guest to address the issue from the perspective of the reformed faith. I have never been inclined to listen to back seat drivers, they are a distraction; please be my guest and take the wheel.
 
This is a discussion board, DTK. Light remarks are part and parcel of discussion. I added the smiley to indicate it was a light remark. You will just have to accept it as such.
Yes, it is a discussion board that trafficks in holy things, and indeed there is often a place for light remarks. But in the context of rebuking a man as though his faith in Holy Scripture rests in the hands of men with nothing but his own personal bias, and then offer an ignorant remark about the discovery of Sinaiticus is incongruent.
As for my approach to Rich, I have done the best I can in the limited time and scope of this forum. If you can do better, please be my guest to address the issue from the perspective of the reformed faith. I have never been inclined to listen to back seat drivers, they are a distraction; please be my guest and take the wheel.
I did take the wheel and corrected your repetition of Burgon's error. I've never been inclined to listen to front seat drivers, especially when they don't know where they're going, or in this case, where they've been.

Cheers,
DTK
 
I would definitely agree with DTK here.

Personally, the best translation I have come across is the Geneva Bible (my personal preference), which was copied by the AV "translators" for almost 80% of the text without the Genevan notes (that and the Bishop's Bible of the day were used). 20% of the AV is translated, and definitely where we find some of the best translations of the Hebrew and Greek MSS to date.

I love the AV version, but love the GB more, aside from the original Hebrew or Greek texts.

However...

Rich is trying to have you answer the question as to "where you find" the Word of God you stand on.

You said, "I assert the Word of God IS perfect."

So does Rich.

You asked Rich, "Why do you believe John 3:16."

He is asking "Where do you find John 3:16?"

You said, "whether the money should be put into that unsafe bank at all."

Rich is asking where you get the information for "your bank."

You said, "If the standard is determined by men, it has no means of correcting men."

Rich knows that God determines the standards, but wants to know where to find it.

You said, "It is the nature of the writing, not its physical attributes which determines canonicity."

Rich wants to know how the nature of the writing is determined wihout physcial attributes of the writing itself.

You said, "We believe that the Lord gave the Word, and that exists in its own right independent of ms. evidence."

Rich is curious as to how this squares with: "and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased."

Rich is wondering where that "writing" is, the graphe?

The WCF states very clearly - "Under the name of holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:" and then names them -

Rich is wondering where they looked to find them.

The WCF states, "The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of the Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings."

Rich wants to know how they knew the difference between the Apocrypha and the writings of Scripture.

The WCF states, "The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God."

Rich wants to know, since it does not rest on men, but on God, where God told him it was the word of God, and what he should recieve AS the word of God.

I enjoy the WCF here as well: "We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture;a and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts."

Rich is curious as to what these divines could be talking about, or what they used (i.e. what MSS) to determined such excellencies, and perfections. The divines said that it is clearly EVIDENCED. What evidendce might they be talking about?

One might say "THE AV!"

Rich will ask where they got that.

One might say "GOD!"

One might ask, we know that but how did God give it to us, and where did they find it, and who found it, and how did they compile it.

Hopefully, at that point, one will not say "GOD!" again or "THE AV!" again.
 
Yes, it is a discussion board that trafficks in holy things, and indeed there is often a place for light remarks. But in the context of rebuking a man as though his faith in Holy Scripture rests in the hands of men with nothing but his own personal bias, and then offer an ignorant remark about the discovery of Sinaiticus is incongruent.

That certainly wasn't my intention.
 
Rich is trying to have you answer the question as to "where you find" the Word of God you stand on.

I omit the rest of your post as it makes no attempt to record the discussion either in order or in context. To answer this simple question, look up at the subject line. If that is all Rich were asking, I would have suggested he look up at the subject line too.

One thing I know -- both you and DTK have as little hope of proving that the Bible is the Word of God from crumbly old mss. as I do. That is why I insist that it should not even be attempted. I know both whence I came and whither I am going. The Bible tells me so!
 
I had to take care of a few things. I appreciate Revs. King and McMahon taking time here. I just want to say that, at no time did I feel Rev. Winzer was rebuking me. I consider him a friend. I do not share his conviction wrt to the AV but share his love and zeal for Christ.

Matt: That was an excellent summation of the issue.
 
One thing I know -- both you and DTK have as little hope of proving that the Bible is the Word of God from crumbly old mss. as I do. That is why I insist that it should not even be attempted. I know both whence I came and whither I am going. The Bible tells me so!
I don’t think any man can prove that the Bible is the Word of God. I think that the Bible is, as the Reformers and the Post-Reformation Reformed insisted, true in and of itself (autaletheia) trustworthy in and of itself (autopistis), because it is the word of the true and living God. And because it is the word of God, it is axiopistos (worthy of faith). This was not novel because it simply echoed the patristic consensus, who likewise recognized and submitted to the witness of God in Holy Scripture. If Scripture is trustworthy in and of itself, it stands in no need of any external authority, be it church or tradition, as witness to approve, endorse, validate, substantiate, or sanction its divine origin.

Here’s the difference, I suspect, between you and I. You look at all the manuscripts (we have some 5,000 or more today) and the subsequent variants, and you regard these as a threat to what you perceive to be the pure texts behind the AV. Your presupposition is based on a desire for no variation in any texts, without which you think we can have no certainty regarding the Bible. On the other hand, I do not believe that textual variations equal textual corruption. It is well known by students of the Bible that textual variations between the Hebrew text, the Septuagint (LXX), and copies of both existed in the days of our Lord. Yet, Jesus and the New Testament writers quote repeatedly from contemporary copies of both the extant Hebrew texts and translations of the Septuagint, never once calling into question the certainty, integrity, and adequacy of these copies to communicate infallibly the word of the true and living God. To suggest otherwise is to call into question the integrity of the New Testament witnesses themselves. Moreover, the preservation of the New Testament text (from the first century to our own day) has been shown many times over to possess the highest degree of accuracy in comparison to other ancient texts. Commenting on the phrase ‘as it is written,’ Roger Beckwith has pointed out:
The quotations are treated as having finality, and it is the contemporary text of the quotations which is treated in this way. Philo quotes from the Septuagint translation, as the New Testament often does and the Fathers regularly do, but when the Hebrew is quoted or reflected (as in the Dead Sea Scrolls and sometimes in the New Testament), there is nothing to suggest that anything other than contemporary manuscripts of the Hebrew is being used. Paraphrase, where paraphrase is employed, is evidently designed to draw out the most relevant implications of the passage quoted, and not to restore a more primitive form of the text. In all this, the practice of Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament is like that of their Jewish contemporaries.
What this implies is that God’s ‘singular care and providence’ was understood to extend not just to the traditional form (or forms) of the original text, but even to standard and accepted translations of the text, such as the Septuagint. See Beckwith’s ‘Toward a Theology of the Biblical Text’ in Donald Lewis and Alister McGrath, eds., Doing Theology for the People of God: Studies in Honor of J.I. Packer (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1996), p 48.

Likewise, Roger Nicole has observed, “When the New Testament authors appealed to Scripture as the Word of God, it is not claimed that they viewed anything but the original communication as vested in full with divine inerrancy. Yet their willingness to make use of the LXX, in spite of its occasional defects, teaches the important lesson that the basic message which God purposed to deliver can be conveyed even through a translation, and that appeal can be made to a version insofar as it agrees with the original" (p. 143). See his ‘New Testament Use of the Old Testament,’ in Carl F.H. Henry, ed., Revelation and the Bible: Contemporary Evangelical Thought (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1958), p. 143. Bruce Metzger (who was the leading authority in the field of textual criticism) has pointed out that:

…the overwhelming majority of such variant readings involve inconsequential details, such as alternative spellings, order of words, and interchange of synonyms. In these cases, as well as in the relatively few instances involving the substance of the record, scholars apply the techniques of textual criticism in order to determine with more or less probability what the original wording was. In any event, no doctrine of the Christian faith depends solely upon a passage that is textually uncertain. Bruce M. Metzger, The New Testament: Its Background, Growth, and Content, 2nd ed., enlarged (Nashville: Abingdon, 1990), p. 281.

Your point is basically there can be no certainty apart from everyone using the AV as the standard text, and anything otherwise is laying one’s head down in a mess. Well, then, pray tell what is the standard German text, or the standard French text, or the standard Korean text? The language of the world isn’t restricted to English. Your point, as I’ve tried to argue, is not only ahistorical in contrast to the witness of the NT writers themselves, but ignores the richness of the great certainty to which the overall manuscript tradition testifies! As F. F. Bruce observed:
By the ‘singular care and providence’ of God, the text of Scripture has come down to us in such substantial purity that even the most uncritical edition of the Hebrew and Greek, or the most incompetent (or even the most tendentious) translation of such an edition, cannot effectively obscure its essential message or neutralize its saving power. F.F. Bruce’s remarks in the forward to Dewey M. Beegle, Scripture, Tradition and Infallibility (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973). See also the comments of Gerhard Maier, Biblical Hermeneutics, trans. Robert W. Yarbrough, (Wheaton: Crossway, 1994), p. 185.
Your response to Rich is that, “I refuse to lay my head down in a mess,” which I paraphrase as “I refuse to deal with it.” It’s not helpful, and it certainly isn’t going to give someone like a Korean believer anywhere to pillow his faith against the critics of Holy Scripture.

Apparently, according to your view, God has only preserved his word pure for the English-speaking peoples of the world. Now, you certainly do not argue this, but it leaves no place, for example, for the Korean believer as noted above.

My preferred text for reading and study and from which I preach is the NKJV. But to use it does not require that I bury my head in the sand and ignore the richness of the vast evidence for the certainty of the NT text of Holy Scripture. In other words, I don't simply say, "I know both whence I came and whither I am going. The Bible tells me so!" as if, obliviously, my non-English speaking brethren can fend for themselves because I'm standing alone on the Word of God. No, one need not agree with you to know whence they came and where they're going.

I would suggest that, in the end, your argument is similar to that of the Romanist, because he likewise argues for a uniformity of agreement, and that otherwise there can be certainty.

Cheers,
DTK
 
Andrew,

Okay, we differ as to the first part of my statement, but what about the second:

Are you aware of the differences between the translations? Or more accurately, the Greek texts underlying them? Either the last twelve verses of Mark (16:9-20) are authentic, or they are not. Either 1 Timothy 3:16 reads "God was manifest in the flesh," or not, as per the modern versions (save those based on the Traditional Text). One version is superior (that is, correct) over the other. Are you aware of the issues and the arguments?​

Ivan is right when he says there are threads here devoted to these questions, and which cover them quite thoroughly.

Is it solely Dr. White's testimony on which you are basing your certitude?

Steve
 
They showed what they thought of Sinaiticus when they threw it in the waste paper basket.

I have no desire to get into this argument, but the statement above is one of the most ignorant remarks I have ever seen. You owe it to yourself to correct it, winky eye or not.​

Perhaps facts will throw a little light upon this. This subject was recently discussed on this board, and here are the two posts that I believe will settle the matter:

http://www.puritanboard.com/showpost.php?p=223739&postcount=3

http://www.puritanboard.com/showpost.php?p=223954&postcount=4

On the first of these posts you will find a link to Tischendorf’s published account of the finding of Aleph.

Steve

---------

P.S. Rich, I will shortly endeavor to answer some of the questions you have posed.
 
Perhaps facts will throw a little light upon this. This subject was recently discussed on this board, and here are the two posts that I believe will settle the matter:
No, your interpretation of Tischendorf's testimony doesn't make it clear for me. You're welcome to your attempt to reconstruct what you think happened, but I don't buy it.

DTK
 
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