Christians and alcohol
- Thread starter AV1611
- Start date
- Status
Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Or every night. We don't have to offer a small amount of capitulation by throwing in phrases like "every so often."
Let's not forget that beer was the standard beverage for several centuries when water was not safe to drink.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
The overarching problem with this thread is that it is in the "Law of God" forum. In order to restrain the consciences of Christians one must show explicit command from holy writ or by good and necessary consequence from it. I have seen neither. I've seen opinions, appeal to statistics, case studies, exaggerations etc.
It all comes down to: I have a beer in my fridge right now. I will drink it tonight. Will I be sinning? If not, then this thread is moot. If so, well refer to the law of God portion above but I'd at least like to hear someone step up to the plate and directly say yes or no.
I don't drink to excess and don't have a beer even every week, For what it's worth.
It all comes down to: I have a beer in my fridge right now. I will drink it tonight. Will I be sinning? If not, then this thread is moot. If so, well refer to the law of God portion above but I'd at least like to hear someone step up to the plate and directly say yes or no.
I don't drink to excess and don't have a beer even every week, For what it's worth.
Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I don't drink to excess and don't have a beer even every week, For what it's worth.
Would it make any difference if you were to have one every week? or even every day?
And the French have children drinking wine at a young age. My parents are atheist/agnostic (on a good day). We had alcohol in the house (Daddy's cabinet when we were little) and we were taught to drink responsibly (NEVER EVER drive drunk). I lost a friend in college to a drunk driver. I was always aware of alcohol's power (if you will) and decided that drinking to excess was stupid during college. Now I do not see anything in Scripture forbidding a glass or 2 of wine or a beer or even a martini after a long day.
~~Susita~~
Puritan Board Junior
Funny. I was listening to my playlist while reading this thread, and the song "Tequila" by The Champs was playing. 
Bob V. asked that the thread be closed I have said my piece and will respect Bob's wishes. Thank You.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
I'd be happier?
I prefer the better beers so it is as much a financial decision as anything else. If anyone wants to fund me beer money I take paypal.
Greg
Puritan Board Sophomore
Just wondering....how much good do some of you think comes from alcohol use? Is it "Hey my cousin Joe puts down a "sixer" a night, what a swell guy!" Is this how the Church thinks now. Are we so much a part of the spirit of this age it is hard to tell Christians from non-Christians?
For the sake of the discussion, if this is how "alcohol use" is to be defined, then I agree with you. However, according to your definition I'd be more inclined to call it "alcohol abuse". To me, Scripture delineates pretty well the difference between one whose life has become mastered, due to the sin in his heart, by that which God intended as a blessing, from the one who can responsibly enjoy that blessing for which it was meant to be, and that in a manner in which it is meant to be enjoyed, namely, in moderation.
There have been calls on this thread to exercise caution and restraint with regards to alcohol use. I wholeheartedly agree. For there are a number of people who cannot exercise control over alcohol. For these people I believe the call to teetotalism is without question. But we cannot (on biblical grounds) make a universal and absolute rule that any and all alcohol consumption without exception is wrong, and that all Christians without exception should not drink.
VaughanRSmith
Puritan Board Sophomore
All who eat have the opportunity to become a glutton.
All who have sex have the opportunity to abuse sex.
All who have parents have the opportinuty to dishonour their parents.
Should we also restrict these things? The Bible makes it clear that these things are all sinful, and easy to fall into. What is the cause? Is it the blessing itself or sin?
All who have sex have the opportunity to abuse sex.
All who have parents have the opportinuty to dishonour their parents.
Should we also restrict these things? The Bible makes it clear that these things are all sinful, and easy to fall into. What is the cause? Is it the blessing itself or sin?
The Bible makes clear that “things” aren’t sinful; the heart is sinful and deceitful above all else. And it is quite adept at misusing things that God intended for blessing. The church is full of overweight and anorexic people whose god is their body. It is full of all kinds of driven people whose god is not the Lord. Indeed as Francis Schaeffer remarked personal peace and affluence is our – the church’s – most dangerous enemy.
A shibboleth is the man takes a drink – and eventually the drink will take the man. Alcohol, esp what folks imbibe in the 21st century is not like the stuff of 1st century Judea. The warnings in Scripture are there to get us to test what is driving our passions – Those who seek comfort, joy, or escape in wine and beer – not discussing hard stuff – are unwise, esp. the more they press their rights – but the proof of an submitted heart will not be in this life-time.
We can't keep or lose our salvation by eating and drinking -- it's our witness that suffers when we show in our bodies what our hearts desire.
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
What is the difference between 1rst century wine and 21rst century wine?
fortification.
Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Greg
Puritan Board Sophomore
About 20 centuries...
Seriously though, I agree with James:
Well . . . I've read some labels -- and when alcohol is added to wine, it is fortified, is it not?
VaughanRSmith
Puritan Board Sophomore
I believe some alcohol is added to fortified wines (ie. Port, Sherry etc), but the alcohol that is contained in your regular bottle of wine is (as Greg says) a natural effect of the fermentation of the grape.
However, even if we were to establish that wine is more alcoholic these days than it was in Biblical times, how would that help the argument? The Bible still says what it says, and a fortified wine is still less alcoholic than most spirits. Is the drinking of spirits forbidden because it is more alcoholic than wine?
However, even if we were to establish that wine is more alcoholic these days than it was in Biblical times, how would that help the argument? The Bible still says what it says, and a fortified wine is still less alcoholic than most spirits. Is the drinking of spirits forbidden because it is more alcoholic than wine?
Could you point me to the Scriptures that define the terms "worship disoroders" and "substance disorders"?
We've had this problem before bw. You like to quote books and catch words but you are very short on Scripture. Perhaps you'd like to try to use some Scripture since this is a Reformed board. I can get psychology from other texts.
Would you like to respond to the fact that you are adding to the Word of God and, in fact, fencing the Law as I have charged. If not, the charge stands and I don't think you have anything to offer other than tradition in this matter.
Fortified wine = dessert wine. Sherry, port maderia and marsala wines would be fortified. Other wines are NOT fortified. Fortified wines were created to avoid spoilage in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
Calvin's salary included 7 barrels of wine (Google is a lovely tool). That being said, moderation is the key in drinking. Know your limits. Alcohol in the church
Calvin's salary included 7 barrels of wine (Google is a lovely tool). That being said, moderation is the key in drinking. Know your limits. Alcohol in the church
Oh, I see you did try. My apologies.
No, idolatry is not a worship "disorder" - it is a sin. Just like syncretism is a sin - that is taking the philosophies of man and syncretizing them with the Word of God.
I think you've become so comfortable and over-wise in these matters that you've never stopped to consider you cannot provide a single Scriptural warrant for your convictions.
Here's the challenge, bw, put up some Scripture on this. I'm not going to permit this to continue int he Law of God forum where you just keep quoting opinions that echo popular literatue but don't properly exegete Biblical passages or use Biblical terminology. All we'll have is the degeneration of the thread like the forgiveness thread where you could quote every author except the Author to support what you were claiming.
Why do you -- and others – keep returning to “forbidding ?” And was Bible wine 11-14% alcohol – that’s what it is today.
http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/965
Again – wine/beer is not forbidden – but the consequences that accompany are warned against. Somebody who insists on his or her right to a drink – with a drug that disables or, in 1 in 10, addicts, is unwise. It is like playing Russian roulette – that’s an observation, not forbidding.
Why do you -- and others – keep returning to “forbidding ?” And was Bible wine 11-14% alcohol – that’s what it is today.
http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/965
Again – wine/beer is not forbidden – but the consequences that accompany are warned against. Somebody who insists on his or her right to a drink – with a drug that disables or, in 1 in 10, addicts, is unwise. It is like playing Russian roulette – that’s an observation, not forbidding.
Scripture bw. No more mollycoddling, no more fencing the law. No more appeal to dubious statistics.
No more "talking points" and "shock talk" (disables, Russian roulette).
Do you want to know what is really scary? The anathema for those that try to add to the Gospel.
{post deleted by Admin, only Scriptural responses will be admitted by bwsmith from this point on} - SemperFideles
Or,
Eccl 2:1-3
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.
2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"
3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.
NASB
I just cited some:
Eccl 2:1-3 –
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.
2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"
3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives. NASB
And I cited quite a good analysis by a wise counselor Ed Welch – who details the tragedy overtaking many folks – and the inability of many in the church to help
1. The verse cannot sustain what you are arguing. You have to do better than that to compare wine drinking to suicide. You have to do better than that to coin "worship disabilities" and all the other talk that I am well familiar with - found in counselling texts but not in the Word itself.I just cited some:
Eccl 2:1-3 –
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.
2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"
3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives. NASB
And I cited quite a good analysis by a wise counselor Ed Welch – who details the tragedy overtaking many folks – and the inability of many in the church to help
2. It is always in the nature of fallen men to believe that the solution to sin is the Law. The irony is that those with the highest per capita incidences of alchoholism are those that most firmly agree with you: Mormons, Free Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc. If you would like to encourage addiction in people then give them as the solution a law that prohibits the use of a thing. It's a sure way to make them powerless over it because they do not trust in the Gospel but in your rule.
The verse shows the foolishness of the pursuit of anything with a jug of wine – and not everybody who plays Russian roulette commits suicide – but people who argue for their “rights” to go off duty with wine or beer – are unwise. Maybe you should increase your understanding of addiction?
- Status
Similar threads
