Are the Psalms Prescriptive for Worship Praxis?

[panta dokimazete]

Christ did not abolish but fulfil. We sing with understanding knowing what they mean, to whom they point.

No argument in that we can sing the songs with greater understanding, just as we can sing and pray and preach the OT with greater understanding - blending our own uninspired words.

Spend some time with this.

Why assume I haven't? The arguments are based on a false premise.

We are commanded to be taught and admonished by the Psalms. The Psalms teach us to worship by singing new songs, playing instruments, etc...it is an easily followed command - why strip the Psalms of their meaning to support a false premise and make up rules that do not exist?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Who holds the office of "New Song Writer" in the Church today?

Who holds the office of preaching new sermons and praying new prayers?

Who holds the office of writing new tunes and setting new rhythms?

How does one prepare for it?

One would believe by studying the songs of Scripture and the art and science of music. Among other things...

 

[Sonoftheday]

One of the things I love about this site is I am constantly reminded how ignorant I am. Other sites I talk(type) on its the same old discussions I could debate in my sleep over and over. Not here, I dont even have a clue what you people are talking about and I love it!

 

[JBaldwin]

Who holds the office of "New Song Writer" in the Church today? How does one prepare for it?

Who holds the office of new prayer writer?

If we are not to make anything new, then we should not make any changes to the psalms and sing them exactly as they were written in the Hebrew language.

 

[Croghanite]

Furthermore, there are examples (and authorized at that) of "new" prayers and sermons that aren't verbatim OT scripture. Where are the examples of uninspired praises being sung? Where are the remnants of all these new songs from the time of the early church?

These are very good questions, especially the last one.

 

[JBaldwin]

It is an interesting study to look back into the hymnology of the early church. According to the various sources (most catholic, I admit) This one, translated from Greek dates back to around 150 AD, and there is some evidence that it may have been sung them in the catacombs. Below are two translations of this early hymn called "Phos Hilaron"

O Gracious Light
pure brightness of the everlasting Father in heaven.
O Jesus Christ, holy and blessed!

Now as we come to the setting of the sun,
and our eyes behold the vesper light,
we sing praises, O God:
Father Son and Holy Spirit.

You are worthy at all times
to be praised by happy voices,
O Son of God, O Giver of life,
and to be glorified through all the worlds.

- Book of Common Prayer
[Oxford University Press, New York. Permission requested.]


O gladsome Light, O Grace
Of God the Father's Face,
The eternal splendor wearing;
Celestial, holy, blest,
Our Savior Jesus Christ,
Joyful in Thine appearing.

Now, ere day fadeth quite,
We see the evening light,
Our wonted hymn outpouring,
Father of might unknown,
Thee, His incarnate Son,
And Holy Ghost adoring.

To Thee of right belongs
All praise of holy songs,
O Son of God, Life-giver;
Thee, therefore, O Most High,
The world doth glorify
And shall exalt forever.

- Robert Bridges, 1899

Another source for early hymns is found at this site Hymns of the Early Church | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

What I find interesting is that as early as 300 AD church leaders were arguing about the use of hymns vs. psalms only. So folks, we are not new to this debate!

 

[Coram Deo]

Here is a clue...

The subjects are whether only Psalms are to be sung in worship or if other songs not in the Psalms are allowed to be sung..

and

Are musical instruments allowed in the New Covenant Worship or are they abrogated with the old covenant temple worship...

All Reformed, Anglican, Congregational, and Historically - The English Baptist i.e. Reformed Baptist of Today All held to Exclusive Psalmody (Only Psalms permitted in worship) and No musical instruments in worship....

Catholics and Lutherans believed and still believe in Songs outside of the Psalms are permitted and musical instruments are permitted....

Early Church taught Exclusive Psalmody and No Musical instruments....

One of the things I love about this site is I am constantly reminded how ignorant I am. Other sites I talk(type) on its the same old discussions I could debate in my sleep over and over. Not here, I dont even have a clue what you people are talking about and I love it!

 

[Coram Deo]

The question remains as in the so-called NT hymns, were they hymns or just poetic poems... Where they ever sung or set to music... No evidence exist they were ever set to music..... All mortal flesh keep silent was part of a liturgy in the 3rd? century but was not sung and was not set to music until the 1800s......

A lot of poetry existed in the early church that monks read or recited but never existed in the worship of God...

Also if even it was proven that one or two were set to music, could it be proven that they ever were allowed in the worship of God or just sung by the lay people through out their day.....

No proof exist they were ever used in worship and no proof exist they were set to music but remain a form of poetry...

It is an interesting study to look back into the hymnology of the early church. According to the various sources (most catholic, I admit) This one, translated from Greek dates back to around 150 AD, and there is some evidence that it may have been sung them in the catacombs. Below are two translations of this early hymn called "Phos Hilaron"

O Gracious Light
pure brightness of the everlasting Father in heaven.
O Jesus Christ, holy and blessed!

Now as we come to the setting of the sun,
and our eyes behold the vesper light,
we sing praises, O God:
Father Son and Holy Spirit.

You are worthy at all times
to be praised by happy voices,
O Son of God, O Giver of life,
and to be glorified through all the worlds.

- Book of Common Prayer
[Oxford University Press, New York. Permission requested.]


O gladsome Light, O Grace
Of God the Father's Face,
The eternal splendor wearing;
Celestial, holy, blest,
Our Savior Jesus Christ,
Joyful in Thine appearing.

Now, ere day fadeth quite,
We see the evening light,
Our wonted hymn outpouring,
Father of might unknown,
Thee, His incarnate Son,
And Holy Ghost adoring.

To Thee of right belongs
All praise of holy songs,
O Son of God, Life-giver;
Thee, therefore, O Most High,
The world doth glorify
And shall exalt forever.

- Robert Bridges, 1899

Another source for early hymns is found at this site Hymns of the Early Church | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

What I find interesting is that as early as 300 AD church leaders were arguing about the use of hymns vs. psalms only. So folks, we are not new to this debate!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Wow. All I did was ask some questions and the first one wasn't even answered to boot. As for the "new prayers" and "new sermons," etc., I asked about new songs (the subject of this thread), not about prayers, sermons, yada, yada, yada. Furthermore, there are examples (and authorized at that) of "new" prayers and sermons that aren't verbatim OT scripture. Where are the examples of uninspired praises being sung? Where are the remnants of all these new songs from the time of the early church?

Sorry - you set yourself up for those

The absence of the early church new songs speak strongly to God's command that His church sing new songs - they are not meant to be permanent as the Psalms are, but to be newly composed, gradually fade and new songs created and composed to allow new songs of praise to spring up from the bride!

Certainly there may be a few that last longer than others, but those are the exception rather than the rule.

Just as there are new sermons and new prayers - God wants us to express ourselves in our own words guided by His holy Word and Holy Spirit to His glory.

 

[JBaldwin]

Augustine writes about a particular type of hymn singing practiced by the Donatists in his Letter LV, chapter 18: [from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia]

I am surprised at your expressing a desire that I should write anything in regard to those ceremonies which are found different in different countries, because there is no necessity for my doing this; and, moreover, one most excellent rule must be observed in regard to these customs, when they do not in any way oppose either true doctrine or sound morality, but contain some incentives to the better life, viz., that wherever we see them observed, or know them to be established, we should not only refrain from finding fault with them, but even recommend them by our approval and imitation, unless restrained by fear of doing greater harm than good by this course, through the infirmity of others. We are not, however, to be restrained by this, if more good is to be expected from our consenting with those who are zealous for the ceremony, than loss to be feared from our displeasing those who protest against it. In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it, especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged: as in the singing of hymns and psalms, for which we have on record both the example and the precepts of the Lord and of His apostles. In this religious exercise, so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God, there is diversity of usage, and in Africa the members of the Church are rather too indifferent in regard to it; on which account the Donstists reproach us with our grave chanting of the divine songs of the prophets in our churches, while they inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition, which rouse them like the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field. But when brethren are assembled in the church, why should not the time be devoted to singing of sacred songs, excepting of course while reading or preaching is going on, or while the presiding minister prays aloud, or the united prayer of the congregation is led by the deacon's voice? At the other intervals not thus occupied, I do not see what could be a more excellent, useful, and holy exercise for a Christian congregation.

[This last section is particularly interesting. Evidently the practice of spontaneous and ecstatic hymn singing was taking place, even during the reading of scripture, during prayers and during preaching.]

It appears that Augustine didn't feel that way

 

[JBaldwin]

While I realize that I am not using scripture as my backing here, I am simply pointing out that there WAS hymn singing in the earlier centuries of the church, and it wasn't psalms only. There was dispute about it even then.

 

[panta dokimazete]

No evidence exist they were ever set to music.....

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[MW]

Who holds the office of "New Song Writer" in the Church today? How does one prepare for it?

By breaking with the Presbyterian belief that Christ alone has the prerogative to appoint the officers who serve in His house and adopting the Prelatical belief that the Church also possesses this authority.

Concerning prayers, Eph. 6:18 says this function belongs to all saints.

Concerning preaching, Rom. 10:15 says that this function only belongs to those who are sent.

Concerning the composition of song, Christ claims this privilege for Himself alone, Heb. 2:12.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Concerning the composition of song, Christ claims this privilege for Himself alone, Heb. 2:12.

(Heb 2:12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.


This passage seems to indicate something other than composition. It is a passage of declaration and singing praise. It is not a declaration of Christ being the lone composer of song.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Who holds the office of "New Song Writer" in the Church today? How does one prepare for it?

I have never heard that there was an office of Song Writer for the Church in either testament. This in no way takes away from the gift of being able to praise God or write theologically sound music and rhyme to praise God with. I would be interested in hearing more about this.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Hi, Matthew! Was wondering when you would show up!

Concerning the composition of song, Christ claims this privilege for Himself alone, Heb. 2:12

saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."

1 - thanks for weighing in on the original premise - if your assertion is correct, then the premise is false and all subsequent conclusions.

2 - How does this Scripture reveal an exclusivity claim by Christ?

(BTW - no contest that he is the Chief Songwriter! Just as he is the Chief Preacher and Prayer!)

 

[MW]

Concerning the composition of song, Christ claims this privilege for Himself alone, Heb. 2:12.

(Heb 2:12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

This passage seems to indicate something other than composition. It is a passage of declaration and singing praise. It is not a declaration of Christ being the lone composer of song.

First, the passage indicates that Christ is the composer of the Psalm quoted. Though David is the sweet Psalmist of Israel, it was the Spirit of Christ within him Who testified the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Secondly, the Elder Brother composes the song, because the text says He is the Sanctifier and His brethren are the sanctified. He orchestrates salvation and we enjoy the melody of grace.

Thirdly, Declaring the name of God in this instance refers to the revelation of what God has done in the manifestation of His glorious grace for the salvation of His people. It is as much as to say Jesus is the "Apostle" of our profession, Heb. 3:1. It is a part of His prophetic office, and so it belongs to Him *originally* to declare the salvation; so Heb. 2:3, "so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him."

Hence the song which Jesus sings in the midst of the church is the revelation of His grace for the salvation of His people. It belongs to Him to reveal it, and for the church to receive it.

 

[MW]

I have never heard that there was an office of Song Writer for the Church in either testament. This in no way takes away from the gift of being able to praise God or write theologically sound music and rhyme to praise God with. I would be interested in hearing more about this.

1 Chron 25:1, "Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the
service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should
prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals," &c.

"Separated to the service" -- that is an office. It also indicates what the
true nature of sung praise is, namely, prophetic.

But it is true that no such office existed in the New Testament church, and that is because the apostles simply received the New Testament songs which were delivered to the Old Testament church in the inspired words of David and Asaph.

 

[jaybird0827]

I voted yes (A).

See also this thread.

How many ways exist to ask the same question, answer the same question, same people coming down on the same side of the question?

 

[MW]

How does this Scripture reveal an exclusivity claim by Christ?

Please see the three point post above. Blessings!

 

[panta dokimazete]

I don't know that I would disagree with any of that, but we are the instrument of proclamation of His work of salvation though preaching (appointed), prayer and song (all the priesthood of believers).

1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.

How can we proclaim His great and finished work without singing new songs of His revealed work of salvation in the NT?

 

[MW]

I don't know that I would disagree with any of that, but we are the instrument of proclamation of His work of salvation though preaching (appointed), prayer and song (all the priesthood of believers).

1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.

Assuming the regulative principle and that our liberty is limited by God's own revealed will -- the proclamation through word is permitted an extemporaneous liberty in order to address the hearer's personal situation, 2 Tim. 4:2. The same extemporaneous element is permitted to individual singing under the direct inspiration of the Hoy Spirit, 1 Cor. 14. The New Testament, however, allows no such extemporaneous liberty to the proclamation which is made through congregational singing, but binds the church to an already existing form of words, Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16, which words are understood to have been given by Christ, Heb. 2:12.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Concerning the composition of song, Christ claims this privilege for Himself alone, Heb. 2:12.

(Heb 2:12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

This passage seems to indicate something other than composition. It is a passage of declaration and singing praise. It is not a declaration of Christ being the lone composer of song.

First, the passage indicates that Christ is the composer of the Psalm quoted. Though David is the sweet Psalmist of Israel, it was the Spirit of Christ within him Who testified the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Secondly, the Elder Brother composes the song, because the text says He is the Sanctifier and His brethren are the sanctified. He orchestrates salvation and we enjoy the melody of grace.

Thirdly, Declaring the name of God in this instance refers to the revelation of what God has done in the manifestation of His glorious grace for the salvation of His people. It is as much as to say Jesus is the "Apostle" of our profession, Heb. 3:1. It is a part of His prophetic office, and so it belongs to Him *originally* to declare the salvation; so Heb. 2:3, "so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him."

Hence the song which Jesus sings in the midst of the church is the revelation of His grace for the salvation of His people. It belongs to Him to reveal it, and for the church to receive it.

I am sorry but I don't see point one. Where does this passage indicate he is the composer?

Concerning point two Christ is declaring the Fathers name to the brethren. And he will sing praise to Him. I am not getting what you are saying. The Son has done the will of the Father and he has declared the the thing the Father sent him to declare. The Son does nothing of himself. He sees what the Father does and does likewise.

(Joh 5:19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I agree with point 3. And in considering the priesthood of the believer we should all do this. But I would add one more thing. I believe we should sing the name that is above every name, and declare the grace of God that is bound up in Him with whom we all have to do.

 

[panta dokimazete]

But it is true that no such office existed in the New Testament church, and that is because the apostles simply received the New Testament songs which were delivered to the Old Testament church in the inspired words of David and Asaph.

There is no evidence that a chief song writer would have even been considered - it is an option open to all believers - not that all will write new songs, but they will certainly sing them.

Psalm 96
A Call to Worship the LORD the Righteous Judge.
1Sing to the LORD a new song;
Sing to the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing to the LORD, bless His name;
Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
3Tell of His glory among the nations,
His wonderful deeds among all the peoples.

How in the world would an NT believer follow this prescription taught by the Psalms without singing of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be His name?

 

[Coram Deo]

*Sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this..... We argued over this a few months ago....

Read Psalm 22.... The complete Work of Christ on the Cross...

Psalm 96
A Call to Worship the LORD the Righteous Judge.
1Sing to the LORD a new song;
Sing to the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing to the LORD, bless His name;
Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
3Tell of His glory among the nations,
His wonderful deeds among all the peoples.

How in the world would an NT believer follow this prescription taught by the Psalms without singing of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be His name?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I have never heard that there was an office of Song Writer for the Church in either testament. This in no way takes away from the gift of being able to praise God or write theologically sound music and rhyme to praise God with. I would be interested in hearing more about this.

1 Chron 25:1, "Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the
service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should
prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals," &c.

"Separated to the service" -- that is an office. It also indicates what the
true nature of sung praise is, namely, prophetic.

But it is true that no such office existed in the New Testament church, and that is because the apostles simply received the New Testament songs which were delivered to the Old Testament church in the inspired words of David and Asaph.

Is 1 Chronicles 25:1 something that David did under the specific instruction of some command by God or something he did in wisdom. Remember how Moses listened to the wisdom of this father-in-law? It was wisdom given but not necessarily commanded by a specific command of God. Is this the same thing?

 

[MW]

How in the world would an NT believer follow this prescription taught by the Psalms without singing of the finished work of Jesus Christ, blessed be His name?

Quid novi? The singer, not the song. The ends of the earth, and not simply the people of Israel, are now to sound the victory of God's salvation and summons all nations to the bar of divine judgment.

 

[panta dokimazete]

*Sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this..... We argued over this a few months ago....

Read Psalm 22.... The complete Work of Christ on the Cross...

Psalm 96
A Call to Worship the LORD the Righteous Judge.
1Sing to the LORD a new song;
Sing to the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing to the LORD, bless His name;
Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
3Tell of His glory among the nations,
His wonderful deeds among all the peoples.

How in the world would an NT believer follow this prescription taught by the Psalms without singing of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be His name?

so...where exactly does that sing the blessed name?

 

[MW]

Is 1 Chronicles 25:1 something that David did under the specific instruction of some command by God or something he did in wisdom. Remember how Moses listened to the wisdom of this father-in-law? It was wisdom given but not necessarily commanded by a specific command of God. Is this the same thing?

1st Chronicles and Nehemiah both attest that David's provisions for temple worship were divine regulations.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

*Sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this..... We argued over this a few months ago....

Read Psalm 22.... The complete Work of Christ on the Cross...

How in the world would an NT believer follow this prescription taught by the Psalms without singing of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be His name?

so...where exactly does that sing the blessed name?

And where is the propitiation mentioned. Where is the substitutionary sacrifice made known in a way that declares we are righteous by His death and resurrection?

Just wanna know.

And not in some mysterious way that is hidden.