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The debate between atheism versus Christianity is not a matter of reason versus faith. As Cornelius Van Til points out in the quote above, the debate is between a worldview in which the non-rational is ultimate (atheism) and a worldview in which the rational is ultimate (Christianity). There is a formal similarity between the two worldviews. Both include an appeal to faith, mystery and spirituality; but these similar words hide a substantial difference between the two—that the atheist is expressing belief in an ultimately non-rational universe when he uses these words, and the Christian is expressing belief in an ultimately rational universe.
Not sure, but it is never rational to assume that something comes from nothing, that we are here by blind chance and random forces. The ultimate starting point is non-rational for the atheist. Ours, while it can't be ultimately proven, is definately rational.
Could someone explain this to me? He keeps saying that Atheism is an appeal to an ultimate irrationality, but doesn't say how (that I can tell). How is the non-rational ultimate for the Atheist?
The debate between atheism versus Christianity is not a matter of reason versus faith. As Cornelius Van Til points out in the quote above, the debate is between a worldview in which the non-rational is ultimate (atheism) and a worldview in which the rational is ultimate (Christianity). There is a formal similarity between the two worldviews. Both include an appeal to faith, mystery and spirituality; but these similar words hide a substantial difference between the two—that the atheist is expressing belief in an ultimately non-rational universe when he uses these words, and the Christian is expressing belief in an ultimately rational universe.
Could someone explain this to me? He keeps saying that Atheism is an appeal to an ultimate irrationality, but doesn't say how (that I can tell). How is the non-rational ultimate for the Atheist?
Could someone explain this to me? He keeps saying that Atheism is an appeal to an ultimate irrationality, but doesn't say how (that I can tell). How is the non-rational ultimate for the Atheist?
"The definition of faith as a leap beyond reason makes sense in terms of the atheist worldview because in that view an Absolute Mind is denied, making the world ultimately non-rational. The ultimate mind in the universe is the finite human mind (or maybe a finite alien mind); thus anything beyond the finite human mind is beyond reason."
I think what he means by irrationality is that the atheist CANNOT explain the origin of ANYTHING. If we keep pressing and digging into the beginning of all things, we have to stop somewhere. That is, something cannot come from nothing. That would be irrational. The atheist's faith in "chance" is really a faith in magic.
Don't know if that helps, but that's how I understand it.
Okay, but I still don't understand the assertion. That the Atheist does not believe in the Christian concept of an ultimately rational mind does not imply that "the ultimate mind in the universe is the finite human mind." Aristotle believed in a transcendent mind.
I see what you're saying, although I don't see how you can prove that it's irrational that something can come from nothing. It sounds to me like it could be an indemonstrable axiom. That we've never seen something come from nothing doesn't logically imply its impossibility.
Okay, but I still don't understand the assertion. That the Atheist does not believe in the Christian concept of an ultimately rational mind does not imply that "the ultimate mind in the universe is the finite human mind." Aristotle believed in a transcendent mind.
What is a "transcendent" mind if it is not God? If there is a transcendent mind, it isn't God, and it isn't ultimate, then what is ultimate? Something non-rational.
Also, atheists do not believe in a transcendent mind...not the new atheists, and not the avg Joe Atheist.
I see what you're saying, although I don't see how you can prove that it's irrational that something can come from nothing. It sounds to me like it could be an indemonstrable axiom. That we've never seen something come from nothing doesn't logically imply its impossibility.
If something coming from nothing can simply be axiomatic, then I can say anything I want to, and call it axiomatic...it's a baseless assertion. Something coming from nothing violates the Uniformity of Nature that we rely on for induction...so it does logically follow that nothing comes from nothing...if it is not necessarily so, then you cannot trust induction (which is a major problem for atheists).
What is the "Uniformity of Nature" that we rely on for induction?
Induction is just as much a problem for us as it is for the Atheist.
Furthermore, even if your premises are granted, the assertion that "something cannot come from nothing" is not even a testable hypothesis. Since induction requires observation, the validity of induction has no bearing on it. If the concept is a "baseless assertion," then so is our assertion of God's existence, since we can prove neither.
What is the "Uniformity of Nature" that we rely on for induction?
"The future will resemble the past"
It's the reason you didn't expect your toothbrush to turn into a gila monster this morning
Induction is just as much a problem for us as it is for the Atheist.
How so? I've talked to a bunch of atheists that say the same thing...but they simply appeal to miracles...and then I explain what a miracle is...then they go back to the straw man they constructed...I have yet to see a persuasive argument demonstrating what you (or they) assert.
Furthermore, even if your premises are granted, the assertion that "something cannot come from nothing" is not even a testable hypothesis. Since induction requires observation, the validity of induction has no bearing on it. If the concept is a "baseless assertion," then so is our assertion of God's existence, since we can prove neither.
This is just as much an assertion as anything I would say about the unreliability of induction. How do you prove that the future will resemble the past? By looking at examples from the past? So the future will resemble the past because the future has resembled the past. This is circular, which is ultimately okay, I suppose, if someone is using it as an indemonstrable axiom. But it shouldn't be considered demonstrable by the supposed supply of "evidences."
And, again, we assert that God's existence is not baseless because He is the necessary such and such, but the Atheist can then assert the existence of His own principle, which is the necessary precondition for the same such and such. It's the problem of the Transcendental Argument again.
Seems like this leads directly to theonomy vs autonomy as the source of rationality - with autonomy proposing "something from nothing" without the demonstrated capability to make it so vs theonomy in which the eternal source does have ex nihilo capability.
I am just starting Bahnsen's Van Til's Apologetic.
Seems like this leads directly to theonomy vs autonomy as the source of rationality - with autonomy proposing "something from nothing" without the demonstrated capability to make it so vs theonomy in which the eternal source does have ex nihilo capability.
I am just starting Bahnsen's Van Til's Apologetic.
I have just finished Greg Bahnsen's Always Ready, but I am scared to start that volume.
Seems like this leads directly to theonomy vs autonomy as the source of rationality - with autonomy proposing "something from nothing" without the demonstrated capability to make it so vs theonomy in which the eternal source does have ex nihilo capability.
I am just starting Bahnsen's Van Til's Apologetic.
I have just finished Greg Bahnsen's Always Ready, but I am scared to start that volume.
it IS quite the tome, isn't it? A friend gave it to me - good summer reading...
The debate between atheism versus Christianity is not a matter of reason versus faith. As Cornelius Van Til points out in the quote above, the debate is between a worldview in which the non-rational is ultimate (atheism) and a worldview in which the rational is ultimate (Christianity). There is a formal similarity between the two worldviews. Both include an appeal to faith, mystery and spirituality; but these similar words hide a substantial difference between the two—that the atheist is expressing belief in an ultimately non-rational universe when he uses these words, and the Christian is expressing belief in an ultimately rational universe.
Could someone explain this to me? He keeps saying that Atheism is an appeal to an ultimate irrationality, but doesn't say how (that I can tell). How is the non-rational ultimate for the Atheist?