Types of Execution

[Barnpreacher]

So, what do you think about the passage in Romans 13 when Paul says the government beareth the sword? Does that leave open other methods of execution (hangings, electric chair, lethal injection)? Taking the historical context into account we understand that the sword is how they executed in Paul's day. But what about these new methods that came along and the methods used today? Should the government still be executing via the sword alone?

 

[BobVigneault]

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

So you think Paul was basically saying death by execution; any means goes and not just the sword?

 

[FenderPriest]

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

Exactly. The "sword" in Romans 13 is the symbol for power in government for upholding justice.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I would venture to say that Sword simply is a generic term for weaponry; thus, it would be permissible to use other forms of weaponry for punishment.

I'm thinking the same thing, but I was reading the account of the first electrocution execution back in the late 1800's. It seems ironic that electrocution was thought to be "more humane" than hanging, but that first one sure was a botch job.

William Kemmler - Things To Remember While Reading Excerpts From "far Worse Than Hanging":, Excerpt From "far Worse Than Hanging"

BTW, I'm trying to finish up my undergrad studies, so this is required reading. This isn't normally something I tend to put on my daily reading schedule.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I have to write a journal entry on this article. I was going to do it from the perspective of the Apostle Paul, using Romans 13, showing that no injustice to Kemmler was done. Rather justice was served. I'm sure my professor will love it.

 

[BobVigneault]

Yes, I would lean that way. I would respectfully disagree that the sword broadly represents the power to uphold government. The sword was not for spanking or calling people to town meetings, it was an instrument of death.

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

So you think Paul was basically saying death by execution; any means goes and not just the sword?

 

[BobVigneault]

Sorry Jacob, I quoted you wrong. We probably don't disagree at all. I'm going to go fall on my sword now.

 

[Timothy William]

The sword was a method of execution (though not the only one) but also, perhaps more commonly, it was the basic weapon of the Roman soldier, the piece of equipment he would have had at his side at all times. Similar to the role the basic assault rifle plays for the modern soldier. And of course the Roman legions were involved in law enforcement and keeping the internal peace as well as warfare and conquest. In a modern context, it would be like saying "the State bears the rifle and the handgun" in a context where those weapons are also used for execution. The right of the government to use force goes beyond the right just to execute criminals.

 

[Barnpreacher]

The sword was a method of execution (though not the only one) but also, perhaps more commonly, it was the basic weapon of the Roman soldier, the piece of equipment he would have had at his side at all times. Similar to the role the basic assault rifle plays for the modern soldier. And of course the Roman legions were involved in law enforcement and keeping the internal peace as well as warfare and conquest. In a modern context, it would be like saying "the State bears the rifle and the handgun" in a context where those weapons are also used for execution. The right of the government to use force goes beyond the right just to execute criminals.

But the context of Romans 13 is about execution, not about war. I guess I'm not following your point???

 

[Timothy William]

No, I'm not sure it is just about execution, in the sense of the judicial termination of a criminal's life. The relevant phrase reads "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (KJV) "To execute wrath upon" does not mean simply "to kill". "To execute" can mean either "to kill" or "to implement" such as implementing/executing a decision, from which we get an executable file on a computer, for example. From my reading of the passage, Paul is saying that it is the role of the government to implement God's wrath on those who do evil. But this wrath does not always imply execution in the sense of ending a life. It could mean incarceration, or causing injury ("an eye for an eye...") or forcing the payment of money or goods, or a general keeping of the peace, where appropriate.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

Indeed. I read in a book once that crucifixion was preferred by the Romans as a method of execution at one time.

 

[Pergamum]

I do not support lethal injections due to mixing medical techniques in the service of capital punishment. I think doctors and needles should be kept to things covered in that Hippo Oath (do no harm...)...

Hanging, shooting or some other quick method is better. I think we are obligated to use the most sure and quickest method that has the least risk of "foul-ups" (like Old Sparky only half-cooking someone).

 

[BobVigneault]

That's true, I think I read the same Book, but that mode was not used for Roman citizens. They got the sword. The cross was a shame to the victim; the sword was a much more humane way to die.

I'm partial to La Madame Guillotine myself. It's kind of an automatic sword. I believe 'the sword' is speaking symbolically of the authority to execute the evil doer.

Indeed. I read in a book once that crucifixion was preferred by the Romans as a method of execution at one time.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I think we are obligated to use the most sure and quickest method that has the least risk of "foul-ups" (like Old Sparky only half-cooking someone).

This kind of gets back to my quesiton in the OP. Is this what Paul was indicating when he talked about the use of the sword, or was it really talking about a broad sense of execution.

How should we execute criminals? Should we worry about it being painless for them? Why? They didn't worry about it being painless for those whom they murdered, raped etc.

It's kind of ironic in the story above about Kemmler, it was said that "an axe would have done a better job." Well, that's what Kemmler used to kill his mistress. So maybe an axe should have been used on Kemmler. Or was Paul mandating that the govt. be as clean and quick as possible by using the "sword" as his example?

 

[BobVigneault]

Ahhhh, remember in Gladiator when Maximus fights to escape execution. I was going to post the video but it is a bit graphic.

"At least give me a clean death...... a soldiers death."

 

[TimV]

It's simply a metaphor for the legal right to punish criminals, and was immediately understood as such for much of European history. You shouldn't read anymore into it than that.

This is the highest penal authority, including capital punishment, as held by a sovereign - indeed sword of justice and hand of justice are regalia that symbolize it.

Often it is proudly displayed, in the form of relevant status symbols. Thus permanent gallows are often erected in prominent public places; the very word for them in French, potence, is derived from the Latin “potentia” meaning 'power'.

From Wikipedia, which I don't like using as a source, but it's as clear there as anywhere.
High, middle and low justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I think some criminals deserve to die very violent deaths as opposed to others.

Let us say a man murders a store clerk in a robbery. He deserves the death penalty no doubt, but a man that rapes a 5 year old continuously then kills her deserves the death penalty by a most excruciating method.

 

[Pergamum]

I think we are obligated not to cause needless pain, even while executing death for a legal matter. We carry out the sentence based on the weight of the execution (i.e. final result death) not in the pain inflcited on the way to that final end. Otherwise, we would have state advocated torture.


Suppose then that a killer killed a person with a chainsaw, limb by limb....who would be the State Executioner in that case?

 

[Barnpreacher]

I think we are obligated not to cause needless pain, even while executing death for a legal matter. We carry out the sentence based on the weight of the execution (i.e. final result death) not in the pain inflcited on the way to that final end. Otherwise, we would have state advocated torture.


Suppose then that a killer killed a person with a chainsaw, limb by limb....who would be the State Executioner in that case?

My head agrees with you, Perg, but my heart is asking what if the one murdered by a chainsaw was (God forbid) a family member?

 

[Barnpreacher]

And, is not capital punishment a form of deterrence? Why were rebellious children and Sabbath breakers stoned in the O.T. Was it just for their suffering or was it also to deter others from following in their steps.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I think we are obligated not to cause needless pain, even while executing death for a legal matter. We carry out the sentence based on the weight of the execution (i.e. final result death) not in the pain inflcited on the way to that final end. Otherwise, we would have state advocated torture.


Suppose then that a killer killed a person with a chainsaw, limb by limb....who would be the State Executioner in that case?

well we can OD them on heroin and sleeping pills. That way they can have a high and pleasant transition.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

My head agrees with you, Perg, but my heart is asking what if the one murdered by a chainsaw was (God forbid) a family member?

Jeffrey Dahmer does not deserve a painless death.

 

[BobVigneault]

If we all got what we deserved...... well, thank God we don't. Emotion shouldn't be allowed to blur justice. The punishment may serve as a deterrent but the motivation must never be revenge. "Vengeance is mine", says the Lord, "I will repay."

 

[Barnpreacher]

If we all got what we deserved...... well, thank God we don't. Emotion shouldn't be allowed to blur justice. The punishment may serve as a deterrent but the motivation must never be revenge. "Vengeance is mine", says the Lord, "I will repay."

Right.

And that's exactly what gets in the way - emotion.

Great verse to point out. If a criminal that is executed is a non-believer then they will suffer for ALL their sin (not just the particular crime they were executed for) at the hand of a Just and Righteous Judge.

If a criminal that is executed is a believer then praise be to God for the penal substitution of our Lord Jesus. Either way, suffering for sin was handed out by Sovereign God Almighty, not man.

 

[Pergamum]

didn't Dahmer die in jail. Also didn't one of those guys (Dahmer or Bundy or someone) confess Christ shortly before before killed in jail?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

didn't Dahmer die in jail. Also didn't one of those guys (Dahmer or Bundy or someone) confess Christ shortly before before killed in jail?

Yes.

Jeffrey Dahmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fatal Addiction: Ted Bundy's Final Interview

 

[BJClark]

They had a big protest here this past week over the most recent execution of a man who raped and killed an 11 year old boy a number of years ago. The mother WAS against the death penalty until it was her child that was killed.

I know for me, IF it were my child who had been killed, I'd struggle within, knowing as a Christian I am called to forgive, but I would so want that person to pay.

My biggest issue with the death penalty is that it takes so long to execute, and our tax dollars are spent feeding and housing the criminals for years and years, even though they are on death row, because they have so many appeals.

However, even with those thoughts I struggle, because I think what IF it were my child sitting on death row (God forbid), as I'd want mercy for them, and not swift punishment, and if it took years in the appeal process I would feel blessed that I had that much more time with my child that they could turn to God and repent..and only then I think I would be able to accept the death penalty being executed...as they would then be with Christ and not suffering in this world.

 

[Zenas]

Define sword.

What if it's a straight blade but only 1 and a half feet long? Is it a daggar? A sword? What if it's curved? Is it still a sword? If it is, then can an axe be considered a sword with a really long handle?

Semantics my friend. The word is a symbol for authority to execute, as Bawb said.

 

[Barnpreacher]

Calvin says:

For they bear not the sword in vain, etc. It is another part of the office of magistrates, that they ought forcibly to repress the waywardness of evil men, who do not willingly suffer themselves to be governed by laws, and to inflict such punishment on their offenses as God's judgment requires; for he expressly declares, that they are armed with the sword, not for an empty show, but that they may smite evil-doers.

And then he says, An avenger, to execute wrath, 1 etc. This is the same as if it had been said, that he is an executioner of God's wrath; and this he shows himself to be by having the sword, which the Lord has delivered into his hand. This is a remarkable passage for the purpose of proving the right of the sword; for if the Lord, by arming the magistrate, has also committed to him the use of the sword, whenever he visits the guilty with death, by executing God's vengeance, he obeys his commands. Contend then do they with God who think it unlawful to shed the blood of wicked men.

Gill says:

for he beareth not the sword in vain. The "sword" is an emblem of the power of life and death, the civil magistrate is invested with, and includes all sorts of punishment he has a right to inflict; and this power is not lodged in him in vain; he may and ought to make use of it at proper times, and upon proper persons:

for he is the minister of God; as is said before, he has his mission, commission, power and authority from him; and is

a revenge to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil; he is a defender of the laws, a vindicator of divine justice, an avenger of the wrongs of men; and his business is to inflict proper punishment, which is meant by wrath, upon delinquents.