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I think that, from our perspective, the question is a bit anachronistic, but since he was a congregationalist, I think the proper question should be - would he even want to be identified with Presbyterians at all?I was told tonight that John Owen wouldn't be allowed to be an officer in the PCA since he was a Congregationalist. I've not read much Owen, and wonder if anyone could please comment. If Owen were alive today could he be an officer in the PCA or OPC?
Thanks in advance.
Remember the little anecdote about Owen when Cromwell sequestered him into his army as a chaplain and they arrived together in Glasglow, Scotland?
There's a brief reference to it in Thomson's Life of Dr. Owen on p. XLV of the first volume of Owen's Works as published by Banner of Truth Trust, as well as in Orme' Life of the Rev. John Owen. It's also often referenced in connection with almost any account of the life of Hugh Binning, though Owen's name is not always mentioned in particular with respect to this incident, Owen simply being among the English divines with whom Binning contended on this occasion.Remember the little anecdote about Owen when Cromwell sequestered him into his army as a chaplain and they arrived together in Glasglow, Scotland?
I wish I could say I did. Any recommended reading on this subject? Sounds fascinating.
Cheers,
The reason for asking is complex. There is a young man who has a good heart, and wants to help the struggling Reformed movement on the Central Coast of CA, but has been under the influence of a couple men who consider themselves to be apostles to the Church Universal, and won't join any local congregation since "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" and the feel they can't submit to any of the elders here.
A very nice young man, and one of his objections to joining a church is that the OPC and PCA are too strict. He is influenced by these men teaching the Federal Vision.
So, he's been reading Owen, and said that the PCA and OPC aren't inclusive enough, and used Owen as an example of someone who could be an officer in the the Reformed churches around here.
So I was hoping from some people familiar with what Owen believed and what kind of exceptions are allowed in the OPC and PCA to give me their ideas. If Owen really wanted to be an elder in the PCA could he?
It is not the narrowness of the reformed churches that is here, a Reformed Baptist church would no doubt not let John Calvin be an elder.
Consider that.
The reason for asking is complex. There is a young man who has a good heart, and wants to help the struggling Reformed movement on the Central Coast of CA, but has been under the influence of a couple men who consider themselves to be apostles to the Church Universal, and won't join any local congregation since "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" and the feel they can't submit to any of the elders here.
A very nice young man, and one of his objections to joining a church is that the OPC and PCA are too strict. He is influenced by these men teaching the Federal Vision.
So, he's been reading Owen, and said that the PCA and OPC aren't inclusive enough, and used Owen as an example of someone who could be an officer in the the Reformed churches around here.
So I was hoping from some people familiar with what Owen believed and what kind of exceptions are allowed in the OPC and PCA to give me their ideas. If Owen really wanted to be an elder in the PCA could he?
It is not the narrowness of the reformed churches that is here, a Reformed Baptist church would no doubt not let John Calvin be an elder.
Consider that.
Excuse my ignorance on this issue, but why not?
It is not the narrowness of the reformed churches that is here, a Reformed Baptist church would no doubt not let John Calvin be an elder.
Consider that.
Excuse my ignorance on this issue, but why not?
I was told tonight that John Owen wouldn't be allowed to be an officer in the PCA since he was a Congregationalist. I've not read much Owen, and wonder if anyone could please comment. If Owen were alive today could he be an officer in the PCA or OPC?
Thanks in advance.
I was told tonight that John Owen wouldn't be allowed to be an officer in the PCA since he was a Congregationalist. I've not read much Owen, and wonder if anyone could please comment. If Owen were alive today could he be an officer in the PCA or OPC?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Tim,
Research in Owen's ecclesiology is still a need. That said, you can read in vol. 15 his "Brief Instruction in the Worship of God" (1667) for as well as "An Inquiry Into the Original, Nature, Institution, Power, Order, and Communion of Evangelical Churches." You should also read the Savoy Declaration.
In my reading of Owen, I have found that "Owen's Congregationalism" is not like "Modern Congregationalism." I think Owen may be called a small "p" presbyterian.
It is not the narrowness of the reformed churches that is here, a Reformed Baptist church would no doubt not let John Calvin be an elder.
Consider that.
Excuse my ignorance on this issue, but why not?
Because he was not credo-baptist only.
It seems it would not make sense. Presbyterians believe we are to have equality among elders and ministers and submission to higher courts not be a democracy or an independent republic or dictatorship
A graduate of Multnomah Seminary recently told me that though it would be ideal to have a plurality of elders in a church there would still need to be one top dog. Its the onyl way to efficiently run things.
This is a part of the reason I became so strongly convinced of the propiety of presbyterian govt. Too many demigods and autocrats running baptist churches a lording it over the people as well.
1 Peter 5:3-4
3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock ;
NKJV
Thats cool. I don't mind the Presb. way I still like the Reformed Baptist way.
My understanding was that owen switched to Congregationalist to accommodate Cromwell.
Sadly it was during that time when he wrote on church polity.
Later he was persuaded back to presbyterian gvt being consistent with scriptures like Acts 15 etc.
My understanding was that owen switched to Congregationalist to accommodate Cromwell.
Sadly it was during that time when he wrote on church polity.
Later he was persuaded back to presbyterian gvt being consistent with scriptures like Acts 15 etc.
As far as I can tell (as Danny Hyde says, much more research needs to be done regarding Owen's ecclesiology), Owen was a convinced Congregationalist. The rumor that he became a presbyterian on his deathbed is probably just that - a rumor.
The reason for asking . . . a young man . . . under the influence of . . . ["]apostles to the Church Universal,["] . . . "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" . . . he is influenced by these men teaching the Federal Vision.
Forget the anachronistic question of Owen, what's up with these guys and their teaching? There's a million errors out there, but Tim's story raises some interesting questions.
Are these guys recognizably FV [names?]
-- or is their teaching merely FV-like?
And if the former, is this where at least a portion of the FV is heading?
men who consider themselves to be apostles to the Church Universal, and won't join any local congregation since "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" and the feel they can't submit to any of the elders here.
Edward:
To clarify, I took Tim's account:
men who consider themselves to be apostles to the Church Universal, and won't join any local congregation since "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" and the feel they can't submit to any of the elders here.
as a classic example of exclusivism -- that these supposed apostles presume to judge the Church, seeking to limit it to the few who meet their standards. It's an old story and the aim usually is to ensnare the gullible.
Edward:
To clarify, I took Tim's account:
men who consider themselves to be apostles to the Church Universal, and won't join any local congregation since "there are only 6 people in the whole State of California who are qualified to be elders" and the feel they can't submit to any of the elders here.
as a classic example of exclusivism -- that these supposed apostles presume to judge the Church, seeking to limit it to the few who meet their standards. It's an old story and the aim usually is to ensnare the gullible.
He is influenced by these men teaching the Federal Vision.
So, he's been reading Owen, and said that the PCA and OPC aren't inclusive enough
He is influenced by these men teaching the Federal Vision.
So, he's been reading Owen, and said that the PCA and OPC aren't inclusive enough
I can't puzzle out what they might mean by 'inclusive' here. I know how it is used in the liberal church, and in society as a whole, and I have trouble fitting that in with what I understand of the FV folks. They have many faults, but 'inclusivity' isn't one which I would attribute to them.