The Cultural Mandate vs The Great Commission
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I do not believe there is a mandate to change the culture unless you mean the church is to bring the gospel to a sinful world and they will be converted and changed but using political means is not the job of the church. Kuyper was wrong in other words and Michael Horton is right.
I guess it would depend on one's definition of culture, which would begin to overlap with a lot of other theological areas.
If culture is the external manifestation of a society's religion, then they would indeed be the same, although there would be an order to the process - new faith -> new culture. But one would necessarily follow the other.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Huge topic, and lots of assumptions are underlying.
I don't think we could rightly say which is more foundational because they are both related and dependent on one another.
The Gospel is part of the cultural mandate and vice-versa. We would not say the Gospel is an island unto itself, either in the life of a person, his family, his community, his nation, etc.
That's one of things that is often not clearly understood in broad evangelicalism today. The Word disciples us under God's authority, before, during and after our salvation and the greater process of redemption (election, inner calling, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification).
It's not as if the "Gospel" is our understanding of four items and nothing else matters. Once we see how God values life, detests those who take innocent human life, we better be "pro-life" and that better affect the way we vote, what we represent to others about it, or we are sinning.
The reality is the Gospel begins a process of bringing the whole of life, every aspect of it under the Lordship of Christ and under the authority of God's Word- all of it. That's why the Christian life is so difficult, so reflected by repentance and faith.
I don't think we could rightly say which is more foundational because they are both related and dependent on one another.
The Gospel is part of the cultural mandate and vice-versa. We would not say the Gospel is an island unto itself, either in the life of a person, his family, his community, his nation, etc.
That's one of things that is often not clearly understood in broad evangelicalism today. The Word disciples us under God's authority, before, during and after our salvation and the greater process of redemption (election, inner calling, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification).
It's not as if the "Gospel" is our understanding of four items and nothing else matters. Once we see how God values life, detests those who take innocent human life, we better be "pro-life" and that better affect the way we vote, what we represent to others about it, or we are sinning.
The reality is the Gospel begins a process of bringing the whole of life, every aspect of it under the Lordship of Christ and under the authority of God's Word- all of it. That's why the Christian life is so difficult, so reflected by repentance and faith.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
If you are referring to the Church as a living organization (the visible Church), then I would say that the Great Commission is more foundational.
If you are referring to the Church as the company of saints (the invisible Church), then it would depend on which sphere of government you are addressing. If you are addressing men as private persons, or as public figures in their families, and businesses, then the charge to take dominion, to be fruitful and multiply, etc. is primary. If you address the visible Church and her ministers, then the Great Commission is primary. If you address the saint as a magistrate, then neither of these is primary, but the Noaic and Mosaic commissions are primary.
As an example, the family has not been commissioned to baptize. Why? Because the GC is given to the Church.
As another example, the Church has not been commanded to be fruitful and multiply. Why? Because God has entrusted the procreation of children to the family.
Therefore, each commission/mandate is more foundational to the sphere to which it is addressed. And, no, I do not believe that they are the same.
Cheers,
Michael Doyle
Puritan Board Junior
Can you explain this for me? Its pretty vague
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
I have never before heard the phrase "cultural mandate". Going by the posts following the OP, they know what it means straight away and I can infer something about it. Perhaps part of my cultural mandate should be to influence your (sub-)culture to change its mind concerning ideas regarding it calls its "cultural mandate"...?
We are strangers and aliens, just passing through, and we want to take others with us. To think beyond that, into the realm of victorian-style social engineering, would lose our focus on that core and we might start to think of ourselves as a part of a society part-changed instead of as living men in a sea of tragic zombies.
Lord Jesus, come! (but use us to save just one more first..)
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I have never before heard the phrase "cultural mandate". Going by the posts following the OP, they know what it means straight away and I can infer something about it. Perhaps part of my cultural mandate should be to influence your (sub-)culture to change its mind concerning ideas regarding it calls its "cultural mandate"...?
We are strangers and aliens, just passing through, and we want to take others with us. To think beyond that, into the realm of victorian-style social engineering, would lose our focus on that core and we might start to think of ourselves as a part of a society part-changed instead of as living men in a sea of tragic zombies.
Lord Jesus, come! (but use us to save just one more first..)
Paul,
Do you think that being a stranger and aliens was true of Moses, Abraham, Jacob, the children of Israel, the godly Kings, etc.?
Cheers,
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
[video=youtube;i1Q6Zun2v-8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Q6Zun2v-8[/video]
Tim Keller does a nice job (in 3 minutes) to show the balance between Christians being counter-cultural and redeemers of culture. I think that this answers the question well. Why does there need to be such a gap between saving sinners and bringing the Gospel to a sinful society.
Tim Keller does a nice job (in 3 minutes) to show the balance between Christians being counter-cultural and redeemers of culture. I think that this answers the question well. Why does there need to be such a gap between saving sinners and bringing the Gospel to a sinful society.
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
Isn't the cultural mandate to be fruitful and multiply? If so, I think, since we are covenant people, that should be and is more foundational to the church. Especially considering that we are to be making disciples of our children, which would place them under the direction of the Great Commission.
Edit: OK. After reading more replies, I must be off of what the mandate is. I think my answer still works.
Edit: OK. After reading more replies, I must be off of what the mandate is. I think my answer still works.
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
I have never before heard the phrase "cultural mandate". Going by the posts following the OP, they know what it means straight away and I can infer something about it. Perhaps part of my cultural mandate should be to influence your (sub-)culture to change its mind concerning ideas regarding it calls its "cultural mandate"...?
We are strangers and aliens, just passing through, and we want to take others with us. To think beyond that, into the realm of victorian-style social engineering, would lose our focus on that core and we might start to think of ourselves as a part of a society part-changed instead of as living men in a sea of tragic zombies.
Lord Jesus, come! (but use us to save just one more first..)
Paul,
Do you think that being a stranger and aliens was true of Moses, Abraham, Jacob, the children of Israel, the godly Kings, etc.?
Cheers,
Absolutely, even exemplifying it. Moses was an exile because he obeyed God; Abraham left his deeply sinful homeland to go a-wandering; Jacob and his the children were strangers and aliens in Egypt, the godly Kings were short-lived isolated pillars in a sea of hostile tribes.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I have never before heard the phrase "cultural mandate". Going by the posts following the OP, they know what it means straight away and I can infer something about it. Perhaps part of my cultural mandate should be to influence your (sub-)culture to change its mind concerning ideas regarding it calls its "cultural mandate"...?
We are strangers and aliens, just passing through, and we want to take others with us. To think beyond that, into the realm of victorian-style social engineering, would lose our focus on that core and we might start to think of ourselves as a part of a society part-changed instead of as living men in a sea of tragic zombies.
Lord Jesus, come! (but use us to save just one more first..)
Paul,
Do you think that being a stranger and aliens was true of Moses, Abraham, Jacob, the children of Israel, the godly Kings, etc.?
Cheers,
Absolutely, even exemplifying it. Moses was an exile because he obeyed God; Abraham left his deeply sinful homeland to go a-wandering; Jacob and his the children were strangers and aliens in Egypt, the godly Kings were short-lived isolated pillars in a sea of hostile tribes.
Very good. Therefore, since Moses was a stranger and an alien, the conclusion that being one means that we can't build nations with wholesome laws and cultures that glorify God is not accurate. Or, did you intend something else by discussing "victorian-style social engineering"? Perhaps I have misunderstood, but this thought is generally used to depricate or oppose cultural activity.
Look forward to your thoughts.
Cheers,
Hamalas
whippersnapper
I'll hopefully post a real response later but for now let me just recommend some thought-provoking works that could help us discuss this topic:
Amazon.com: Culture Making: Recovering Our Creative Calling (9780830833948): Andy Crouch: Books
Amazon.com: Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church (9780801013188): Michael Horton: Books
Amazon.com: Culture Making: Recovering Our Creative Calling (9780830833948): Andy Crouch: Books
Amazon.com: Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church (9780801013188): Michael Horton: Books
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
Adam,
Of course we can and should be an influence where possible to bless our cultures. I don't think anyone could ever deny that without falling into some sort of corporate gnosticism, if you catch my meaning.
But to legislate and encourage God honouring behaviour in people who are an offense to God in their very being can only ever be to put a plaster on an open flowing sore. "They honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men". God is not pleased with darkness masquerading as light. What people need is to be aware of the sin in their innermost being, so that in repentance their innermost being can be transformed. If our society is legislated and influenced to be identical to us outwardly, we will no longer be the odor of death unto death to those who are perishing. I would question how much God and Christ would be glorified in the absence of that fragrance.
The question was not whether or not to do it, but how fundamental it is. I'm shocked and even disturbed that the question in the OP can even be asked. To compare influencing and legislating society to be ordered along God honouring lines, like lining up a group of corpses in shiny military gear for inspection, to compare that with the Great Commission and even to say they are the same thing! Wow.
I am interested in your use of the word 'overlaid'. You also used this word in another thread:
Obviously, your view is that these are not mutually exclusive, but which is more foundational to the church? Is the GC the 'basis' of the CM? Is the GC an 'administration' of the CM? Is the CM the mandate of a pre-fallen world, and the GC its counterpart in a fallen world?
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
We are to fill the earth with the Cultural Mandate. I think this means we are to have children and this means every family have some children. It does not mean that it is a contest to see how many a family can have and then be the winners of some spiritual contest. But Christians who can have children but decide not to for some reason could be considered as not listening to God.
The Great Commision calls us to change nations. God the Son did not say we are to go and find people (although that is implied and expected) He said we are to and baptize the nations in His wonderful Name. This does not say we are to go there and change the laws but laws will change when people and nations convert to Christ. Read Scott1 post from above and tell me where he is wrong. He is right, how can a people called to the Lord and not vote to change Laws that or evil and wrong? A true convert is a vote for rightousness to rule the land and only God tells us what is right.
I don't think the are the same, but you can't have one without the other.
The Great Commision calls us to change nations. God the Son did not say we are to go and find people (although that is implied and expected) He said we are to and baptize the nations in His wonderful Name. This does not say we are to go there and change the laws but laws will change when people and nations convert to Christ. Read Scott1 post from above and tell me where he is wrong. He is right, how can a people called to the Lord and not vote to change Laws that or evil and wrong? A true convert is a vote for rightousness to rule the land and only God tells us what is right.
I don't think the are the same, but you can't have one without the other.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I think I do. You're seeking to avoid inactivity in culture because we're too "spiritual", if I'm not mistaken. And I quite agree.
So, is your major concern with the hypocrisy of a victorian-style culture?
Paul, the shock you feel is based upon your starting point. In a cursory reading of the Bible, one can easily see that much attention and space is paid to the cultural mandate.
Also, from a specific look at the Great Commission, it is clear that Christ is commanding for the nations as nations to become His disciples. He is King of kings, and Lord of lords (a political title, among other things). This is where the concept of Christendom is derived, as well as from the plain teaching of Scripture throughout (see, for example, the Mosaic law, Psalm 2, Isaiah, Daniel, Revelation, Romans 13, etc.).
If Christendom shocks you, then you may need to consider whether you have a Reformed understanding of the civil state.
Cheers,
Oh boy, here comes the word 'Christiandom'. I hope there is a way we can discuss this without entering into a debate on Theonomy (which is not at this time allowed on PB).
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
Where can I read the reasons that the board has not allowed debate on Theonomy?
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
Bad call, Ken.
That's a longish way of saying "you can't legislate morality".
And the the no-brainer answer is to ask yourself if all penalties were removed from, say, stealing, would stealing increase or decrease?
If you say "well, if it were to become legal to steal, there would be not a whit more stealing than there is now" you make yourself out to be naive.
If you say "yes, of course, if there would be more stealing if there were no penalties" then you admit morality can be legislated.
That's a longish way of saying "you can't legislate morality".
And the the no-brainer answer is to ask yourself if all penalties were removed from, say, stealing, would stealing increase or decrease?
If you say "well, if it were to become legal to steal, there would be not a whit more stealing than there is now" you make yourself out to be naive.
If you say "yes, of course, if there would be more stealing if there were no penalties" then you admit morality can be legislated.
Prufrock
Arbitrary Moderation
There is simply a "temporary breather" of sorts on going straight for the heart of the issue while various matters are sorted out or cooled off. It's only been in effect for a few days.
Theonomists are not the only people who believe in Christendom; try calling Rev. Winzer a Theonomist.
Cheers,
Relax. I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with using the word, only that its appearance in a thread often marks a turning point.
To whom are you addressing this post?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
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