1948 Israel
- Thread starter D. Paul
- Start date
- Status
A.J.
Puritan Board Junior
Webservant
Puritan Board Sophomore
I am reading, "The Israel of God" by Palmer Robertson. I will report back here when I am finished.
Knoxienne
Puritan Board Graduate
No, it was purely political.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
The real significance of the founding of Israel in 1948 was to show just how strong the collection of victorious nations following WWII had become (and how easily they could be bent by Zionists): they could create a nation out of thin air.
I'm all for the followers of Modern Pagan Levitical interpretation having a place to live in which they don't have to face mass extinction by crazed dictators, but this was not the way to go about doing so.
I'm all for the followers of Modern Pagan Levitical interpretation having a place to live in which they don't have to face mass extinction by crazed dictators, but this was not the way to go about doing so.
D. Paul
Puritan Board Sophomore
The reason for asking the Q in that fashion is due to a class at church that makes it sound as though we are all supposed to be longing to be Jews. They have all these neat Festival Days and Celebrations with all this significant background for our Christianity yadayadayada...
...and SO very interested in all the events relating to the nation Israel that we need to "keep our eyes on".
...and SO very interested in all the events relating to the nation Israel that we need to "keep our eyes on".
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
One thing that may be helpful is Kim Riddlebarger's book, A Case for Amillennialism.
In it, the author acknowledges the remarkable nature of a modern day nation of Israel. Granted, it's not at all the same nation as the Old Testament theocracy, centered around the Temple and sacrificial system and organized around the tribal divisions of land and occupation.
But it is an amazing act of God's Providence that people with some Jewish ancestry have survived the incredible persecution, wars and famines over the centuries and maintained both an identity and an attachment to roughly the same land area.
However, this is not the center of God's redemptive plan. Christ was, is and forever shall be the center and God is gathering in people from every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue on that basis. That was His plan from the beginning, even when He was dealing primarily with the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.
It's possible to see in Romans 11 and other places a future redemptive work among people with some Jewish ancestry- but on the basis of grace through faith in Christ. Some see a broad redemptive work, others a persevering remnant. Both are remarkable!
I find it all the more a remarkable act of God's providence that He has regathered so many with some Jewish ancestry in roughly the same land area, made their security so precarious, made them so dependent on the United States, to them a "Christian" nation, for existence. Also, I find it so amazing how many still reject Christ and are so hardened and so blind toward Him.
All that to say, you likely will get some good more detailed answers here, but if you keep the basics in focus, God's sovereign plan of redemption, you can remain biblical and not get caught up in the rampant speculation, almost a cottage industry connected with that speculation,
or go off into a dispensational framework which would eternally separate people with some Jewish ancestry from the Body of Christ or would have different means of redemption at different periods of man's history. Scripture teaches one covenantal plan plan to redeem one way, through Jesus Christ crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, and coming again.
In it, the author acknowledges the remarkable nature of a modern day nation of Israel. Granted, it's not at all the same nation as the Old Testament theocracy, centered around the Temple and sacrificial system and organized around the tribal divisions of land and occupation.
But it is an amazing act of God's Providence that people with some Jewish ancestry have survived the incredible persecution, wars and famines over the centuries and maintained both an identity and an attachment to roughly the same land area.
However, this is not the center of God's redemptive plan. Christ was, is and forever shall be the center and God is gathering in people from every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue on that basis. That was His plan from the beginning, even when He was dealing primarily with the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.
It's possible to see in Romans 11 and other places a future redemptive work among people with some Jewish ancestry- but on the basis of grace through faith in Christ. Some see a broad redemptive work, others a persevering remnant. Both are remarkable!
I find it all the more a remarkable act of God's providence that He has regathered so many with some Jewish ancestry in roughly the same land area, made their security so precarious, made them so dependent on the United States, to them a "Christian" nation, for existence. Also, I find it so amazing how many still reject Christ and are so hardened and so blind toward Him.
All that to say, you likely will get some good more detailed answers here, but if you keep the basics in focus, God's sovereign plan of redemption, you can remain biblical and not get caught up in the rampant speculation, almost a cottage industry connected with that speculation,
or go off into a dispensational framework which would eternally separate people with some Jewish ancestry from the Body of Christ or would have different means of redemption at different periods of man's history. Scripture teaches one covenantal plan plan to redeem one way, through Jesus Christ crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, and coming again.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
You are showing a certain lack of historical knowledge with that comment. Terrorism in the territory of Palestine predates the establishment of the state of Israel.
And, of course, terrorism worldwide has a long and bloody history. (Look at what the Catholics did to the Protestants in France, for example.)
D. Paul
Puritan Board Sophomore
Holocaust Prophetically Significant?
Allow me to tie in the Holocaust. The idea behind this was that Satan was still attempting to make the Second Coming impossible since he could not hinder the first. So, was the Holocaust prophetically significant? What purpose did it serve other than to say the Jews were persecuted? Was it remotely along the same lines as any biblical attempt at annihilation?
Did I just hijack my own thread?
Allow me to tie in the Holocaust. The idea behind this was that Satan was still attempting to make the Second Coming impossible since he could not hinder the first. So, was the Holocaust prophetically significant? What purpose did it serve other than to say the Jews were persecuted? Was it remotely along the same lines as any biblical attempt at annihilation?
Did I just hijack my own thread?
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Allow me to tie in the Holocaust. The idea behind this was that Satan was still attempting to make the Second Coming impossible since he could not hinder the first. So, was the Holocaust prophetically significant? What purpose did it serve other than to say the Jews were persecuted? Was it remotely along the same lines as any biblical attempt at annihilation?
Yes (you changed the trajectory of your thread).
You might find it helpful to start another if you wish to explore that topic so you don't loose the dispensationalism/covenant theology underpinnings that relate to your original post.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
If memory serves me right, in the 1980's (maybe earlier), it was claimed that there were more self proclaimed Jews living in the state of New York than Israel. Should we look for prophecy to be fulfilled in NY ? I think not.
a quick wiki note:
As of the 2000 census, The New York metropolitan area is home to 3,372,512 Italians making them the largest European ethnic group in New York. The New York metropolitan area is home to the largest number of Jews outside Israel. There are more Jews within the city limits of New York City than within the city limits of Jerusalem, making the New York City Jewish community the largest such community in the world. About 12% of New Yorkers claim to be Jewish or of Jewish descent.[9] New York is also home to nearly a quarter of the nation's South Asians,[10] and the largest African American community of any city in the country.
a quick wiki note:
As of the 2000 census, The New York metropolitan area is home to 3,372,512 Italians making them the largest European ethnic group in New York. The New York metropolitan area is home to the largest number of Jews outside Israel. There are more Jews within the city limits of New York City than within the city limits of Jerusalem, making the New York City Jewish community the largest such community in the world. About 12% of New Yorkers claim to be Jewish or of Jewish descent.[9] New York is also home to nearly a quarter of the nation's South Asians,[10] and the largest African American community of any city in the country.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Edward you raise a topic for an other thread...
But pogroms & religious massacres are not the same as terrorism. (Although no doubt they are very terrifying for the victims.)
Terrorism is usually understood to be the application of limited mayhem & murder to prevoke a political response. As an articulated philosophy it is generally considered to originate in the 19th century. The assasination of the Austian Archduke by the Serbian BlackHand organisation was the most dramatic example but it "proved too much" by making the goal of an independant Serbia impossible due to WW 1.
The "success" of the Stern Gang & Irgun at driving out first the Brits, and then the Arabs created a "sellers market" after the 1950's.
I was not making an off the cuff comment. There is a fair amount of academic historiagraphy in this field.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Drifting further
with my comments, your 19th century date is way too late. Even using your definition, which I don't fully accept, the actions of the colonists against the Tory civilians would qualify. (My definition would be violence targeted against innocent civilians to obtain a political goal.) In any event, terrorism was a proven tool long before it was implemented by both the Jews and the Arabs in the mandate.
Theognome
Burrito Bill
So where's the nation for Russian Christians killed by the tens of millions during the same time?
Theognome
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
My point exactly. Thus my comment about the victors being bent by Zionists.
PointyHaired Calvinist
Puritan Board Junior
Perhaps the Lord is using the ingathering of the Judaists to prepare the way for them to become true Jews - by submitting to the Messiah.
Other than that, I don't know. We are Israel; they are merely physical descendants of Jacob.
Other than that, I don't know. We are Israel; they are merely physical descendants of Jacob.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I certainly believe in a national conversion of the Jews, along with many of the Puritans and the Reformed down through the ages and today.
I disagree with Palmer Robertson's view of Romans 11 that it only refers to a conversion of a relatively small numberr of Jews down through the centuries and not also to a national conversion.
See:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f45/o-palmer-robertson-romans-11-a-51401/
The Q of the nation of Israel is different but related. God could convert the Jews without the nation of Israel, but in His providence she has come about. Whether the Jews used just/partially just or unjust means to achieve it is also a topic. I would say that they did not wage a thoroughly just campaign to repossess the Land, and given that the vast majority do not love God in Christ, that is what we would expect. It still does not justify any unacceptable elements in the possession and founding and holding of the Land of Israel. But what should be done now? Should the whole world gang up on Israel and turf them out, or something less?
The Apostle Paul doesn't mention a national restoration in Romans 9-11, and the whole Earth - including what was the Holy Land before the end of the Mosaic Era - is now the Holy Land of Israel to Jewish and Gentile believers and their children that constitute the Israel of God.
The Jews cannot plead that God gave them the Land of Israel by divine right to Abraham as a reason for their possession of it:-
(a) Because the vast majority are unbelievers - and only have a formal relationship to the God of Abraham. Possession of the Land, even in the O.T. was always related to faith and repentance on the part of the Jews.
(b) If they pleaded God's grant of the land to its fullest extent, from the river Euphrates to the River of Egypt, and from the Jordan to the Medi, it would cause international chaos.
(c) Because they have to take into account the Palestinians and fight a modern Just War,and diplomacy, and not the holy wars of David and the Israelites against the Philistines (from whom the Palestinians get their name). Of course other factors like the fact of Israel's security and the fact that many Palestinians are terrorists has also to be taken into account. Holy War - apart from evangelism and sanctification - is over.
Re the Holocaust, when bad things happen to the Jews, that is God's voice in providence encouraging them to repent and believe in the Messiah; when good things happen to the Jews, that is God's voice in providence encouraging them to repent and believe in the Messiah.
By labelling the massacre of sinful Jews by sinful National Socialists in the last war, the Holocaust or whole burnt offering, this is another indication of the slowness of Jews, just like many Gentiles, to learn.
It will be a blessed day when as a nation they recognise that Christ's Passion is their true Holocaust.
I disagree with Palmer Robertson's view of Romans 11 that it only refers to a conversion of a relatively small numberr of Jews down through the centuries and not also to a national conversion.
See:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f45/o-palmer-robertson-romans-11-a-51401/
The Q of the nation of Israel is different but related. God could convert the Jews without the nation of Israel, but in His providence she has come about. Whether the Jews used just/partially just or unjust means to achieve it is also a topic. I would say that they did not wage a thoroughly just campaign to repossess the Land, and given that the vast majority do not love God in Christ, that is what we would expect. It still does not justify any unacceptable elements in the possession and founding and holding of the Land of Israel. But what should be done now? Should the whole world gang up on Israel and turf them out, or something less?
The Apostle Paul doesn't mention a national restoration in Romans 9-11, and the whole Earth - including what was the Holy Land before the end of the Mosaic Era - is now the Holy Land of Israel to Jewish and Gentile believers and their children that constitute the Israel of God.
The Jews cannot plead that God gave them the Land of Israel by divine right to Abraham as a reason for their possession of it:-
(a) Because the vast majority are unbelievers - and only have a formal relationship to the God of Abraham. Possession of the Land, even in the O.T. was always related to faith and repentance on the part of the Jews.
(b) If they pleaded God's grant of the land to its fullest extent, from the river Euphrates to the River of Egypt, and from the Jordan to the Medi, it would cause international chaos.
(c) Because they have to take into account the Palestinians and fight a modern Just War,and diplomacy, and not the holy wars of David and the Israelites against the Philistines (from whom the Palestinians get their name). Of course other factors like the fact of Israel's security and the fact that many Palestinians are terrorists has also to be taken into account. Holy War - apart from evangelism and sanctification - is over.
Re the Holocaust, when bad things happen to the Jews, that is God's voice in providence encouraging them to repent and believe in the Messiah; when good things happen to the Jews, that is God's voice in providence encouraging them to repent and believe in the Messiah.
By labelling the massacre of sinful Jews by sinful National Socialists in the last war, the Holocaust or whole burnt offering, this is another indication of the slowness of Jews, just like many Gentiles, to learn.
It will be a blessed day when as a nation they recognise that Christ's Passion is their true Holocaust.
Last edited:
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Edward, you are correct that my ancestors did suffer brutality at the hands of the rebels, esp after victory. However this was a state sanctioned action after the British surrender, and the result of a civil war prior to that. In other words, it was incidental to traditional warfare. Thus not terrorism as we understand it.
Interesting proposition..
Who do you believe desired to prove the effectiveness of terrorism, and what was/is their motivation.. what interests do you think are served by it?
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Irgun & the Stern Gang. They waged war against the British & the native Palestinians, when the Brits bailed & the world stood by & tolerated the ethnic cleansing that followed the efectiveness was obvious.
Their goal was to establish a socialist/zionist state in the mideast.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I can't agree with your distinctions. The middle east terrorism is state sponsored, as well, and it is an outgrowth of a series of wars.
-----Added 8/27/2009 at 11:00:42 EST-----
Agree, as far as it goes. But don't overlook the Arab terrorism as well as the Jewish in the 1930s.
Perhaps I misunderstood your proposition. By "prove the effectiveness of terrorism" and "unleashing worldwide terrorism" I took it to mean that you thought those who used terror to bring about the state of Israel were not merely interested in the establishment of the state. It appeared to me that you suggested the use of terror in this case was just a proof of concept and that those who orchestrated it, and demonstrated it effectiveness, were planning on using the proven concept for plans of more grand scale.
- Status
