One "chance" is all you get.
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toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
It seems to me the burden is on the one who claims somehow that there's a limit of any kind on the number of times someone can be presented the Gospel. I really don't get where you're coming from with the original question...
Isn't it fascinating the way the Bible keeps referring to nations and peoples as if they were singular persons? When Israel was a child, I loved him, ...etc
It's often given me a sense of being on the brink of a great mystery, what it means to be one person, yet the same flesh as everyone else - and the whole mystery of consciousness that evolutionists like to bluff they're on the point of explaining - but I never quite get there (and I don't believe anyone ever will)
Sorry -
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I never said I know there is a limit. I asked where it can be found in scripture where a person is exposed to The Gospel multiple times before they are converted by God.
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Paul
No obvious evidence where Paul was exposed to Jesus before his conversion is what I see.
sastark
Puritan Board Graduate
I never said I know there is a limit. I asked where it can be found in scripture where a person is exposed to The Gospel multiple times before they are converted by God.
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Paul
No obvious evidence where Paul was exposed to Jesus before his conversion is what I see.
The coats of those who stoned Stephen were laid at the feet of Saul. He was present for Stephen's martyrdom and he heard Stephen's testimony. Saul was exposed to the Gospel more than once.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
But you're assuming that there needs to be some Scriptural evidence that "more than once" happens. Why isn't it obvious from experience alone that this does happen? I'm just missing the point of your question, I guess. I can't see why you need some sort of Scriptural basis for what is clearly the case in everyday life. Can you tell us why you're asking? Is someone telling you that people get "only one chance" as your thread title implies?
Paul
No obvious evidence where Paul was exposed to Jesus before his conversion is what I see.
Why? He was persecuting the church. Do you think that he was doing so without knowing what the church was teaching??
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
2Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. - Phil 3:2-6
I'm pretty sure that the above testimony shows he had been exposed to the gospel thoroughly.
I'm pretty sure that the above testimony shows he had been exposed to the gospel thoroughly.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Now that is what I was looking for, in a sense. Though the substance is there, the Christ of the new testament was not revealed till His incarnation is what I was getting at.
So far as Paul and Stephen I am wondering where the Gospel is preached by Stephen in his discourse? He was stoned because he pronounced the fact the rulers still kill the prophets.
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Other than testing all things by scripture? Seems to me there would be overwhelming evidence that this happens. What does seem overwhelming is that The Gospel is preached and people come then and there and not later.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Now you seem to be intimating that Christ is only revealed in the New Testament. That's incorrect too.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I see Him in the OT concealed and in the NT revealed. I don't believe that today people are converted by the OT unless Jesus is preached to them as proclaimed in the NT. Not to say that He was not spoken of in the OT doing such, but the eunuch did have to have Isaiah explained to him.
sastark
Puritan Board Graduate
Acts 7:51-60:
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
It is clear that Stephen was killed for his testimony of Jesus Christ. He was not martyred because he accused the Jews of murdering the prophets (if that were the case, he wouldn't be called a martyr!).
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
That was good I will "assume" Paul heard him then.
OK that is one. Seems to me there would be more.
Amen.
[bible]Hebrews 4:1-14[/bible]
[bible]Romans 10:5-21[/bible]
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
RC Sproul came to salvation through Ecclesiastes 11:3. If memory serves me correctly, he mentions that the verse was not in a context of a Gospel presentation but rather the Spirit took that verse and brought about regeneration.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I have heard the same. Though RC is not in the bible.
All I am asking is why do we not see more more examples in the scripture. Of course the cannon was finished before this could happen....in a sense. No doubt there should be some OT examples?
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The bible is full of stories of OT guys coming to salvation. Abraham comes to mind.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I agree. The question was how many were justified after repeated exposure to God.
It's not like God gives their regeneration biographies. I think you need to remember that "I got saved when I was six..." is sort of a Revivalist mentality thing. Nobody can date their regeneration and the Bible doesn't talk like that. Look at Jacob's life and you certainly don't see many fruits of regeneration even though God visited him with the "Gospel" many times before you see any fruit. I don't think there's any mistake in the potter/clay analogy that Paul uses. Pots don't look like masterpieces until the potter has spent some time on it. It would be a mistake to conclude that, when the clay is a lump, it is not intended by the Potter for honorable use.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Earl, it seems like several people have answered your question several times already, yet you are not satisfied. You have not answered Todd's question about what you are getting at with your original post. Are you attempting to make a case that people must respond to the gospel the first time they hear it or something to that effect? If not, what are you getting at with your question?
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Actually I was referring to your statement early
I then made the case for RC Sproul. I was not commenting on your original question. Others have already done that.
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
What is driving your question? (If you don't mind sharing.) Are you asking for study's sake or is there something else that is driving it? (I am just curious. Feel free to ignore me if you don't wish to answer.)
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
And many dispensationalists likewise say that all the signs pointed to Christ who was to come.
And by the way Earl, remember what Paul said to Timothy regarding the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:15: "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Didn't Jacob wrestle all night? There was no instant submission in his case.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Thank you for asking. Originally I asked for examples for repeated exposures to The Gospel that are found in scripture. Nothing more nothing less. I got ONE answer that is debatable though I will assume is legit.
Now this question springs forth from what I have noticed in people who are converted later in life. For example, most look to the fruit they produce or sins they do not commit to prove they are saved. Now no doubt this can be an evidence one is truly justified as James points out in is writings. The rub is that I can point to many who also would point to changes in their life that proves the same such as Mormons, my oneness pentecostal niece, JW's ect. I will sometimes ask new older converts if they believe differently things about Who Jesus is and what He did after they "changed". Most of the time they either say no or that they actually do believe differently. I have no problem with those that really have their mind changed by God but those that don't sometimes think that it is only people "like us" who love to speak about Jesus a lot are truly saved.
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I am with you here. That is why I asked if there were any other examples including the OT saints.
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True that was ONE long encounter.
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I like that, but I would assume Timothy already was Justified.
OK, so now I'm confused Earl.
How does your original question connect? What is motivating a desire to see an "example" of an actual person who we can undoubtedly say was converted after multiple exposures to the Gospel. If all you're looking for is a historical narrative or biography to give you confidence that such exists then you approach to Scripture is fundamentally flawed. We don't look for biographies to confirm ideas that are clearly articulated. I provided concrete teaching from Hebrews 4 and Romans 10 that speaks to repeated exposure to the Gospel and that it is not under any bushel. Those in the desert wanderings for 40 years were exposed to the Gospel. The author of the Hebrews is warning people to not shrink back from the Gospel. These things are converting and confirming and upbuilding.
As to your second issue, then, you're really now shifting trails to conversion experience. Again, as I said before, you're approaching Christianity from a revivalist notion. What conversion stories have in common is a revivalist mentality that Christianity is an internal religion and that conversion experience is what it's all about. It is not.
How does your original question connect? What is motivating a desire to see an "example" of an actual person who we can undoubtedly say was converted after multiple exposures to the Gospel. If all you're looking for is a historical narrative or biography to give you confidence that such exists then you approach to Scripture is fundamentally flawed. We don't look for biographies to confirm ideas that are clearly articulated. I provided concrete teaching from Hebrews 4 and Romans 10 that speaks to repeated exposure to the Gospel and that it is not under any bushel. Those in the desert wanderings for 40 years were exposed to the Gospel. The author of the Hebrews is warning people to not shrink back from the Gospel. These things are converting and confirming and upbuilding.
As to your second issue, then, you're really now shifting trails to conversion experience. Again, as I said before, you're approaching Christianity from a revivalist notion. What conversion stories have in common is a revivalist mentality that Christianity is an internal religion and that conversion experience is what it's all about. It is not.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
I'm not sure I follow. Timothy's present justification in the passage doesn't affect the attribute of the sacred writings, namely that they are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
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