One "chance" is all you get.

[earl40]

OK, so now I'm confused Earl.

How does your original question connect? What is motivating a desire to see an "example" of an actual person who we can undoubtedly say was converted after multiple exposures to the Gospel. If all you're looking for is a historical narrative or biography to give you confidence that such exists then you approach to Scripture is fundamentally flawed. We don't look for biographies to confirm ideas that are clearly articulated. I provided concrete teaching from Hebrews 4 and Romans 10 that speaks to repeated exposure to the Gospel and that it is not under any bushel. Those in the desert wanderings for 40 years were exposed to the Gospel. The author of the Hebrews is warning people to not shrink back from the Gospel. These things are converting and confirming and upbuilding.

As to your second issue, then, you're really now shifting trails to conversion experience. Again, as I said before, you're approaching Christianity from a revivalist notion. What conversion stories have in common is a revivalist mentality that Christianity is an internal religion and that conversion experience is what it's all about. It is not.

So the point of Romans was? It appears that they were exposed constantly and not saved. I will read the Hebrews passage again and see if this shows repeated exposure to The Gospel and were saved.

BTW I was trying to point out in my previous post I agree with the revivalist mentality is also incorrect.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

And by the way Earl, remember what Paul said to Timothy regarding the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:15: "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

I like that, but I would assume Timothy already was Justified.

I'm not sure I follow. Timothy's present justification in the passage doesn't affect the attribute of the sacred writings, namely that they are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

I am speaking of justification and not salvation. I often get those mixed up. That is why I was trying to be precise in my wording about the difference. Not doing to well I am sorry about that. I also notice that all throughout scripture it appears that people are exposed to The Word and they believe right there and then and not later. Just an observation I have had and wonder why there are not more concrete examples of multiple exposures before people believe.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

OK, so now I'm confused Earl.

How does your original question connect? What is motivating a desire to see an "example" of an actual person who we can undoubtedly say was converted after multiple exposures to the Gospel. If all you're looking for is a historical narrative or biography to give you confidence that such exists then you approach to Scripture is fundamentally flawed. We don't look for biographies to confirm ideas that are clearly articulated. I provided concrete teaching from Hebrews 4 and Romans 10 that speaks to repeated exposure to the Gospel and that it is not under any bushel. Those in the desert wanderings for 40 years were exposed to the Gospel. The author of the Hebrews is warning people to not shrink back from the Gospel. These things are converting and confirming and upbuilding.

As to your second issue, then, you're really now shifting trails to conversion experience. Again, as I said before, you're approaching Christianity from a revivalist notion. What conversion stories have in common is a revivalist mentality that Christianity is an internal religion and that conversion experience is what it's all about. It is not.

So the point of Romans was? It appears that they were exposed constantly and not saved. I will read the Hebrews passage again and see if this shows repeated exposure to The Gospel and were saved.

BTW I was trying to point out in my previous post I agree with the revivalist mentality is also incorrect.

The point of the Romans 10 passage is that exposure to the Gospel is inescapable and constant for those in the visible "Church". Though it speaks negatively about the rebellion of some, the author doesn't have to spell out to the converted Jews present that they actually believed. The point is that the rebellious heard and, by extension, those that believed heard. If you need any historical examples of people who heard the Gospel a number of times before they believed then the answer is every Jew that followed Christ.

I really think you need to read a book on how proper hermeneutics works. I see some fundamental problems in the way you demand verses speak directly to your question without taking the time to meditate on how certain principles and ideas necessarily answer your question without a precise prooftext.

 

[earl40]

It's not like God gives their regeneration biographies.

That is why I asked about the evidence from scripture on those we know who were Justified. For we agree that the revivalist mentality is not good.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

If you need any historical examples of people who heard the Gospel a number of times before they believed then the answer is every Jew that followed Christ.

I really think you need to read a book on how proper hermeneutics works. I see some fundamental problems in the way you demand verses speak directly to your question without taking the time to meditate on how certain principles and ideas necessarily answer your question without a precise prooftext.

I agree many are exposed to The Gospel many times, and my question was specifically pointed to examples to those that were Justified after hearing it multiple times. The verses in Romans and Hebrews you site seem to say they were not converted even after multiple exposures. I was asking the exact opposite. Though I can infer many did indeed come to faith from such exposure.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

So? All of the signs pointed to the messiah that was to come, which was sufficient. To deny such is dispensationalism, plain and simple.

Q. 34. How was the covenant of grace administered under the Old Testament?

A. The covenant of grace was administered under the Old Testament, by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the passover, and other types and ordinances, which did all foresignify Christ then to come, and were for that time sufficient to build up the elect in faith in the promised messiah, by whom they then had full remission of sin, and eternal salvation.

Yes, I see that clearly now, thanks. Which I agree with you in that Paul was exposed to The Gospel repeatability even before he knew of Jesus.

 

[Sgt Grit]

If we are given only one shot at the Gospel every Pastor should have a warning before preaching like this: “Warning!! I am going to preach the Gospel, if you are not ready to become a Christian please leave now, since you only get one shot”.

Paul persecuted Christians, what do you think the chances are that none of those Christians shared the Gospel with him? I think it would be absurd to think that these Saints who were willing to suffer and die for Christ would at the same time all disobey our Lord by not sharing the Gospel with their captors.

Look at Rev 3:1-6, they definitely heard the Gospel, and they were dead, but Jesus tells them to “repent”. I’ll get off my soapbox now.

 

[toddpedlar]

Earl -

Rich has already pointed out to you that you are demanding of Scripture something that's really not appropriate: a woodenly-literal story of someone repeatedly being taught the truth, and then, finally, somewhere down the line, coming to faith. I don't know why you're demanding this of Scripture, but you ought to be able, from the volumes that have been written in response to your question, believe that it, in fact, does happen. You have not only been given ample evidence from Scripture (though not as literal and direct as you'd like) but you also have been told that you probably need to study how Scripture is to teach us (not only through a literal, wooden, direct teaching, but through good and necessary inference from the bulk of Scripture).

Another example that has not yet been brought up clearly shows that we can expect that some who convert will take a long time. Here is Paul to Timothy:

[BIBLE]2 Tim 2:24-26[/BIBLE]

There is no way one can read this and infer that Timothy is not actually to expect (or we, his servants today) that his patient efforts at explaining the truth to people will NEVER result in justification unto life in anyone that doesn't leap to faith right away.
To the contrary, Paul is encouraging Timothy to keep at it - precisely because human beings have thick skulls, and may need to hear the truth many, many times before the Holy Spirit grants repentance and faith.

 

[Peairtach]

Nebuchadnezzar was "exposed to God" (to use an accurate biblical-theological expression) a number of times before being saved. See his biography.

Old Neb was a mean dude, which is maybe why Neb(uchadnezzar) isn't a popular baby name.

King Mannasseh of Judah was "exposed to God" numerous times before repenting in an Assyrian gaol of his murderous crimes against God's people.

No doubt there are many others that don't immediately spring to mind.

What do you mean by "exposed to God"? Exposed to the Gospel?

We are constantly exposed to God in one way or another from conception to death. If we don't realise that, it is because of our sinful hearts.

We are warned that the Spirit of God may and does stop striving with some people before their deaths, and that some can put themselves beyond the pale by committing the sin against the Holy Spirit, but there is no indication that this is connected in some way with one hearing of the Gospel being preached.

Some may and have attended a good church hundreds or thousands of times bfore they believe that God brought them to faith. A simple calculation can show this, and emphasises God's grace, and forbearance with sinners, once again.

 

[earl40]

Earl -

Rich has already pointed out to you that you are demanding of Scripture something that's really not appropriate: a woodenly-literal story of someone repeatedly being taught the truth, and then, finally, somewhere down the line, coming to faith. I don't know why you're demanding this of Scripture, but you ought to be able, from the volumes that have been written in response to your question, believe that it, in fact, does happen. You have not only been given ample evidence from Scripture (though not as literal and direct as you'd like) but you also have been told that you probably need to study how Scripture is to teach us (not only through a literal, wooden, direct teaching, but through good and necessary inference from the bulk of Scripture).

Another example that has not yet been brought up clearly shows that we can expect that some who convert will take a long time. Here is Paul to Timothy:

[BIBLE]2 Tim 2:24-26[/BIBLE]

There is no way one can read this and infer that Timothy is not actually to expect (or we, his servants today) that his patient efforts at explaining the truth to people will NEVER result in justification unto life in anyone that doesn't leap to faith right away.
To the contrary, Paul is encouraging Timothy to keep at it - precisely because human beings have thick skulls, and may need to hear the truth many, many times before the Holy Spirit grants repentance and faith.

Todd that was a great example in Timothy! That is CONCRETE.

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

Nebuchadnezzar was "exposed to God" (to use an accurate biblical-theological expression) a number of times before being saved. See his biography.

Old Neb was a mean dude, which is maybe why Neb(uchadnezzar) isn't a popular baby name.

King Mannasseh of Judah was "exposed to God" numerous times before repenting in an Assyrian gaol of his murderous crimes against God's people.

No doubt there are many others that don't immediately spring to mind.

What do you mean by "exposed to God"? Exposed to the Gospel?

We are constantly exposed to God in one way or another from conception to death. If we don't realise that, it is because of our sinful hearts.

Good stuff! That is what I was asking for.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I agree many are exposed to The Gospel many times, and my question was specifically pointed to examples to those that were Justified after hearing it multiple times. The verses in Romans and Hebrews you site seem to say they were not converted even after multiple exposures. I was asking the exact opposite. Though I can infer many did indeed come to faith from such exposure.

What you're missing from Hebrews is the use of the first person plural. Let us not be found to be unbelieving as our forefathers were. There is also an injunction to believe while it is Today. When is it not Today, in other words. Yet, in one sense, it is an encouragement (kick in the pants) to the shrinking back. Later in the passage he's going to warn about the apostasy of some that shrink back to the point of condemnation while he expresses pastorally encouraging confidence that things accompanying salvation will convert the hearers of the exhortation.

In other words, the pattern of Hebrews is of the form of one large exhortation to believe, continue to believe, encourage to believe, warnings about unbelief, etc. The tenor is unmistakable that everyone reading the exhortation is visibly in the Church (ought to be teachers by now but still rely on milk, etc) and that these visible members could shrink away just like the generation in the wilderness. Nevertheless, those that hear and believe (Romans 10 - how shall they believe unless they hear) are encouraged to consider those that have done the same from faith to faith. The pattern in Hebrews would make no sense for if everyone who hears the Gospel once is regenerated then there is not much point in warning about shrinking back. It would not be possible because every hearer of that admonition has already heard the Gospel many, many, many times and would have long ago been regenerated already.

In other words, Hebrews 4 is a very concrete example but you actually need to think about it rather than immediately respond. Spend some time studying this stuff rather than preparing your response as you read it.

 

[NB3K]

Some people will get no "chance" at all if the Lord is not pleased to send them a preacher.

That's right!
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.-ESV

 

[py3ak]

Where in scripture does it show a person exposed to The Gospel multiple times before they are converted?

The simple answer is that the Apostles preached extensively in Jerusalem after Pentecost. Now those who were in Jerusalem, like the "great company of priests", had heard similar things before: reports of John the Baptist's preaching had reached them, and of course Christ Himself had spoken extensively within the Temple precincts. To such an extent that Peter, preaching on Pentecost, accuses his audience of the murder of Christ. They were acquainted enough with Christ to hate Him with a virulent passion that led them to an insane extent of sin; and yet they were (some of them) converted under the preaching of the Gospel.

There you can see a definite conversion of those who previously heard the Gospel and hated it. And you can also note that even though many did not believe on the day of Pentecost, the Apostles kept preaching, and the church kept growing. The first five chapters of Acts, in other words, show clearly why people have thought your question was quite strange.

 

[Jack K]

Earl:

You want more NT examples/teaching about people getting a second chance to believe the gospel. Okay. Here goes:

Example #1: Paul. Already mentioned.

Example #2: Zechariah the priest. Luke uses the word "gospel" a lot but his first usage—his important introduction—is when Gabriel speaks to Zechariah who didn't believe: "I was sent to speak to you and bring you this good news (yes, that's the word "gospel")... but because you did not believe my words..." (Luke 1:19-20). Zechariah is made deaf and mute due to his unbelief. But later, after Mary's visit to his home and after Elizabeth gave birth, he clearly came around to faith, was filled with the Spirit, and erupted in a hymn of praise. The gospel took time to work on his heart. It didn't work at once. This account, being Luke's introduction to belief in the gospel, may actually suggest it's normative for the gospel to sink in over time.

Example #3: The unbelieving spouses of believers in Corinth. At the time of Paul's writing, the spouses have not yet believed although we must assume they've heard the gospel. Paul tells the believers to remain with them: "Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?" (1 Cor. 7:16). The gospel clearly has more chances to work on them.

Example #4: The unbelieving husbands of the wives Peter writes to. Peter says much the same as Paul to wives whose husbands have heard but don't believe: "Be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won by the conduct of their wives" (1 Peter 3:1). So there's hope for these guys too.

Example #5: Believers in Ephesus. Paul preached the gospel there for two years, so that "all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord" (Acts 19:10). But not so many believed until after the incident with the sons of Sceva. Then: "Fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices" (v. 17-18). Again, multiple exposures and witnesses of the Spirit.

Let's not box the Spirit into a corner by suggesting that the first exposure to the gospel must be the one that "takes." Jesus is very clear in John 3 that the regenerative work of the Spirit can be neither predicted nor understood. Our job is to preach the gospel, and keep preaching it, knowing that it is the power of God unto salvation.


Edit: I see we need to add example #6, the priests and others in Jerusalem Ruben just mentioned.

 

[MarieP]

Perhaps a point brought out in a recent sermon might help.

Although the Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah, even after the shift of preaching of Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles, they are found several verses later preaching in a synagogue, and Jews believe. They're showing the patient, loving heart of God even to a nation that has a long history of being unfaithful to Him. Why are we to expect that we need to be any less patient with individuals? How is "one chance only" reflecting God's long-suffering (I say this knowing full well that God is sovereign in salvation)? Sure, He sovereignly ordains it that some only have one chance to hear the Gospel. But praise be to God that is not the norm!

The illustration goes that a non-believer goes to appear before God and sees a big pile of dust and asks, "What's that?" The reply is that it's the dust wiped off the feet of all the Christians that have exhorted, warned, and plead with them to believe.

Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 14
1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks believed.

Granted, you could take Acts 13:48 to say that ALL the elect in the synagogue in Antioch believed, but that would seem to be rare. Not to make experience an infallible rule of truth, but to say that there is always only one chance to believe leads to silliness...what about in a local church? So at what age does one have their "one chance" to believe? Sure, there comes a point when we do wipe the dust off our feet so we don't cast our pearls before swine, but we should tremble when that has to happen!

Romans 9
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Let's not forget about James, the brother of Jesus.

 

[MarieP]

Let's not forget about James, the brother of Jesus.

Oh, yes!!!

A point brought out (and applied) in this excellent SS lesson: SermonAudio.com - Biography of James

 

[earl40]

Good stuff guys.

 

[earl40]

[bible]Hebrews 4:1-14[/bible]

Very Good!

 

[Peairtach]

God is such a gracious God that he often gives some people many occasions in providence (better than "chance" on a Calvinist forum) to hear the Gospel, or be reminded of it by the Holy Spirit.

But an individual doesn't know if he/she will get more than one occasion in providence, or if this is the last occasion before death or before the Spirit stops striving, so by God's grace he/she should, and should be encouraged by the preacher, to immediately embrace Christ with both hands.

 

[steadfast7]

Earl, if you're looking for examples of when a person is justified, it's reasonable that the Bible records the moment that they heard and believed then and there. This does not negate any possibility that multiple exposures of the gospel may have happened. You are arguing from silence.

Your flawed assumption is that because the Bible doesn't cite an example of X, X cannot be true and/or X cannot be practiced. Remember that God reveals truth by general revelation and reason, not only scripture.

does the Bible describe how to shoot a lay-up? Then is it wrong to do it? or how photosynthesis works? Then is it wrong to believe it?

 

[toddpedlar]

God is such a gracious God that he often gives some people many occasions in providence (better than "chance" on a Calvinist forum) to hear the Gospel, or be reminded of it by the Holy Spirit.

But an individual doesn't know if he/she will get more than one occasion in providence, or if this is the last occasion before death or before the Spirit stops striving, so by God's grace he/she should, and should be encouraged by the preacher, to immediately embrace Christ with both hands.

Richard reminds me of another pertinent passage. Paul clearly says that some plant, some water and some reap in 1 Cor 3:

[BIBLE]1 Cor. 3:5-9[/BIBLE]

The clear implication there is that it may take repeated exposure for some, and those who plant will not necessarily see the harvest. The examples you were citing early on are examples (perhaps) of a quick turnaround in which one who planted harvested also. That is not, however, the way it goes all the time (or even normally).

 

[Iconoclast]

acts13:42-49
42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

 

[littlepeople]

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Psalm 19: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

It would seem that all conversions are the products of repeat exposure.

 

[toddpedlar]

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Psalm 19: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

It would seem that all conversions are the products of repeat exposure.

Let's be careful not to stretch the Bible too far the other way... Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19 do NOT present us with examples of repeated exposure to the Gospel as such.

 

[littlepeople]

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that the light of nature is sufficient to save alone, but certainly this repeat exposure is a means of supporting the Word. Meaning that upon hearing the Word and the Spirit working the heart to believe, an entire lifetime of exposure to creation is felt as evidence of the truth.

 

[earl40]

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Psalm 19: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

It would seem that all conversions are the products of repeat exposure.

Let's be careful not to stretch the Bible too far the other way... Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19 do NOT present us with examples of repeated exposure to the Gospel as such.

Plus I am convinced.

Thank you all for the many examples.

 

[Peairtach]

Quote from Brandon

this repeat exposure

The term "repeat exposure" or "exposure to God" that Earl has been using hardly makes for nuanced theological discussion, anyway!

 

[toddpedlar]

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that the light of nature is sufficient to save alone, but certainly this repeat exposure is a means of supporting the Word. Meaning that upon hearing the Word and the Spirit working the heart to believe, an entire lifetime of exposure to creation is felt as evidence of the truth.

I understood your meaning... my point was that repeated exposures to the light of nature has absolutely nothing to do with repeated exposure to the Gospel, which is what Earl was asking about.

 

[py3ak]

Plus I am convinced.

Sorry, you blew your one chance to get it right!

 

[earl40]

Plus I am convinced.

Sorry, you blew your one chance to get it right!

Of course the first time I "heard" it I believed.