How long do we have left?

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MLCOPE2

MLCOPE2

Puritan Board Junior
Having recently viewed a few of Doug Wilson's videos on his blog entitled "Ask Doug" I came across one in which the question was asked "Could Jesus come back today". Doug, having a postmil perspective, stated that he believed that the church was still in its infancy stages and that it, the Church, will probably still be around in 10,000 years.

[video]http://www.canonwired.com/ask-doug/Jesus-return-today/[/video]

Having come out of dispensationalism and the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ which is currently holding forth the idea that not only can Christ return at any time but that he will be returning soon, I have to admit that I am ignorant of most other eschatological perspectives understanding of the time-frame concerning the end of the world. I now consider myself an optimistic partial preterist amil but I haven't thought through this issue thoroughly yet.

Therefore I come to you, my PB brethren, and ask what you think (with respect to your eschatological understanding) regarding the time that we, as the human race, have left on this earth? :worms:

*Please do not turn this into a debate thread! I simply desire to understand each persons position on this matter. (Even though mine is the only right one :lol:)
 
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Based on nothing but my own thoughts about the state of the world, I expect Christ's return within 100 years. I am amil. Fortunately as I won't live to be 133 nobody will be able to call me out on my mistake in 2110...!
 
37-3/4 hours. Get packing. Go plant a tree with Luther. :D

Man knows not his time.
 
I'm surprised the first response wasn't October 21, 2011!!! :lol:

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ----------
gWayne said:
Man knows not his time.
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I'm definitely not looking for specifics but generalities. Do people agree with Jonathan and say 100 years or with Doug Wilson and say 10,000+.
 
Sept. 12, 1988


Bet you whippersnappers don't get it!


Live like he can return any moment and in 1,000,000 years.
 
:doh: For some reason which I cannot substantiate I'm thinking of it as most likely to occur sometime between now and 1,000 years from now. Of course, I could be wrong. It may seem like a wide date range, but it's much more compact a guess than Doug Wilson's:p:banghead: 10, 000 year surmise.
 
Christ tells us that we do not know when He is returning, but then gives us indications of when He is not returning. Or, rather, He told His Apostles that no one knew when He was returning, and then gave indications to His Apostles and us about when He was not returning.

Also this Q is somewhat different for believers and unbelievers:-

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (I Thess 5:1-4)

Whether Christ returns in the death of the unbeliever - the eschatalogical "already" - or in His Parousia at the Eschaton - the eschatalogical "not yet" - it will always be a shock for the unbeliever because he/she suppresses the Truth about his/her coming judgment, in unrighteousness.

For the believer it will not be a shock, because he already knows and believes in it. It will not be like a thief because he is ready for it, although if he is in a state of backsliding at the time, he may not be as ready as he would like to be. It will not be like a thief because it is not a threat to the believer. It will not be like a thief because Christ does not come to take away from the believer but add to him.

The doctrine of the any moment Parousia and Eschaton is another evangelical myth that has been fostered and reinforced by Dispensationalism into an unthought out dogma.
 
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I truly meant for this thread to be an intellectual stimulation on our own eschatological perspectives. I understand that we don't know the day or the hour, I understand that the end will come without warning. I am merely asking, based on your perception of the millennium (to be more specific), if you believe that the end is nigh or if you don't see the world as ending for several more millenia.

The dispensationalists say that the world is ending tomorrow (obviously a dramatic over-exageration). For the historic premil, they may see the end as coming within the next 100-200 years. For the amil it might be that it will not be for 100-100,000 years, and for the postmil (like Wilson) it might not be for at least 10,000. That is the intention of the thread, to see what differing eschatological perspectives understand about the future of the current state of creation.
 
Well if Romans 9-11 teaches that the Jews must be converted and that that will result in a greater ingathering of the Gentiles than the Jews apostasy did, then that is an indication of a considerable period of time. The idea that it could happen overnight doesn't seem to comport with the passage, and there is no mention of the Second Advent in the passage.

If Revelation teaches the defeat of civil, secular, pagan persecution in the form of the First Beast, before the Eschaton, then that has to happen.

In Revelation we also have the destruction of apostae Christianity - Babylon - and the Church being made ready for Christ - the Lamb's Wife.

We also have the destruction of Antichrist (the Papacy) and antichrists, represented by the Second Beast.

None of this has happened yet.

The Apostle Paul in Galatians and elsewhere indicates that the Mosaic period was the childhood of the Church, and it lasted for about 1,400 years (?). If the last 2,000 years was the rebellious adolescence of the Church, how long will the maturity and old age of the Church be?

But Christ can come for any of us in death at any time, and for most people who have lived that will be the day when the World will end for them and when their state will be sealed. So we must be ready for Christ's coming in His Providence in Death.

The Bible doesn't just speak of Christ coming in His Parousia at the Eschaton.

E.g. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Rev 2:5)

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Rev 2:16)

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (Rev 3:3)

Did the world come to an end when Christ came in judgment upon these churches? Does the world come to an end when Christ comes in judgment upon unbelievers in death?

Christ is coming in history, in blessing (e.g. Pentecost) and in judgment (e.g. the destruction of Jerusalem), as well as His cataclysmic Parousia at the Eschaton.
 
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at least 40,000 years.

God says that his faithfulness extends to 1,000's of generations of his people. So it can be much longer then that of course, but at a minimum that must mean at least 1,000 generations (or 40,000 years).

in my opinion we muct still be in the period of the early church because we still disagree on the entry sign of the church, baptism. It seems that unity on an orthodox definition of baptism is a simple definition of the end of the "early church".
 
MLCOPE2 said:
the doctrine of the immanent return of Christ
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I think you meant 'imminent return', unless you are refering to this:
To immanentize the eschaton means trying to bring about the eschaton (the final, heaven-like stage of history) in the immanent world. It has been used by conservative critics as a pejorative reference to what they perceive as utopian schemes, such as socialism, communism and transhumanism. In all these contexts it means "trying to make that which belongs to the afterlife happen here and now (on Earth)" or "trying to create heaven here on Earth."
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I attended First Pres. in Jackson this past Lord's Day. Ligon Duncan's sermon was on Luke 12 addressing this very topic. I'm inclined to think it would be any minute now. :)
 
My guess would be the next hundred years or so... but then I'm an ex disp, so what do I know?!
 
I am amil For what it's worth.

I expect my kids to see the Lord's return, if not me.

At the end of time, Satan is unleashed. I believe that is happening now with Islam and all the other deception, as what was once a quasi Christianized civilized world turns to darkness, including America.

A couple dozen nations with nukes, and 4 billion people totally dependant on the electric grid for food, water, heat , sewage, etc. The potential for tribulation, Revelation style, right there.

Peak aquafers, peak potash ( fertilizer), peak good soil, peak uranium, peak ( easily accessed and refined) oil......all that is another set up for hard times.

The reemergence of antibiotic superbugs, a potential for unthinkable plagues, even within a few years from now.

Gog/ Magog happens at the end of the millennium. The best linguistical evidence ( no time to find a link now) is that it refers to territory now Islamic ( partly the "stans"). Need I say more about Islam?

I am surprised we've made it this far without dire judgment, based on the sheer amount of sexual perversion and arrorgant rejection towards Christianity, in what was once the Christianized west and even former colonial lands.

Might be wrong, but thinking this way lessens the hold of this world on me.
 
Richard Tallach said:
Well if Romans 9-11 teaches that the Jews must be converted and that that will result in a greater ingathering of the Gentiles than the Jews apostasy did, then that is an indication of a considerable period of time. The idea that it could happen overnight doesn't seem to comport with the passage, and there is no mention of the Second Advent in the passage.

If Revelation teaches the defeat of civil, secular, pagan persecution in the form of the First Beast, before the Eschaton, then that has to happen.

In Revelation we also have the destruction of apostae Christianity - Babylon - and the Church being made ready for Christ - the Lamb's Wife.

We also have the destruction of Antichrist (the Papacy) and antichrists, represented by the Second Beast.

None of this has happened yet.

The Apostle Paul in Galatians and elsewhere indicates that the Mosaic period was the childhood of the Church, and it lasted for about 1,400 years (?). If the last 2,000 years was the rebellious adolescence of the Church, how long will the maturity and old age of the Church be?

But Christ can come for any of us in death at any time, and for most people who have lived that will be the day when the World will end for them and when their state will be sealed. So we must be ready for Christ's coming in His Providence in Death.

The Bible doesn't just speak of Christ coming in His Parousia at the Eschaton.

E.g. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Rev 2:5)

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Rev 2:16)

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (Rev 3:3)

Did the world come to an end when Christ came in judgment upon these churches? Does the world come to an end when Christ comes in judgment upon unbelievers in death?

Christ is coming in history, in blessing (e.g. Pentecost) and in judgment (e.g. the destruction of Jerusalem), as well as His cataclysmic Parousia at the Eschaton.
Click to expand...

Love it! Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
christiana said:
His return is imminent, but then it has been imminent for over 2,000 years. Why worry, be ready!
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Well in one sense it is imminent, and in another sense it isn't (hasn't been).

Christ's Second Advent partakes of the "already.....not yet" of New Covenant eschatology.

E.g. If it was imminent to a person in the first or second century that Christ was about to appear physically and the world was about to end, we wouldn't be sitting here, because the world would have ended. We know that it wasn't imminent because 1900 years later it hasn't happened.

But Christ's providential actions in history in blessing and judgment which anticipate the Parousia were imminent, including the death of the wicked and their souls being cast into Hell.

If a person is trying to express the idea that he/she doesn't know when Christ is returning and that Christ could come in His Parousia at any moment, or on the other hand He might be a long time, the correct expression to use is not that Christ's Second Advent is imminent, but that Christ's Second Advent might be imminent or it might not be, but that we don't know.
 
Although I've never held a premil position as a believer, I appreciate an emphasis on readiness either for our own death or the return of Christ. In just the last 6 months or so, I have shifted to an amil position, and given G. Vos' comments on 2 Thessalonians, am adopting a less optimistic position. That said, we can glory in Christ having defeated sin and death in His resurrection and overseeing his kingdom from the right hand of God.
 
Quote from Lynnie
At the end of time, Satan is unleashed. I believe that is happening now with Islam and all the other deception, as what was once a quasi Christianized civilized world turns to darkness, including America.

A couple dozen nations with nukes, and 4 billion people totally dependant on the electric grid for food, water, heat , sewage, etc. The potential for tribulation, Revelation style, right there.

Peak aquafers, peak potash ( fertilizer), peak good soil, peak uranium, peak ( easily accessed and refined) oil......all that is another set up for hard times.

The reemergence of antibiotic superbugs, a potential for unthinkable plagues, even within a few years from now.
Click to expand...

But things will get better again once secularism breaks down, possibly long after we're gone. After we and our believing children have experienced physical persecution by the State. The Enlightenment project is doomed, but it may take a long time to lead to further major revival and reformation.
 
When you look at Matthew 24-25 (the Olivet Discourse) closely, our Lord does indicate that we don't know when He is to return, but also points out that He will not return at any moment after he has left - for example immediately. There will be a delay.

He first explicitly tells His disciples when He will come in judgemental providence on Jerusalem:

"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matt. 24:32-34, ESV)

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. (Matt 24:15-18)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. (Luke 21:20-22)

Then He tells them that no-one can date-set His Second Advent or even His coming in Providence e.g. in death:

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (Matt 24:36)

Then he indicates that although no-one can date-set His Second Advent, yet it will not happen immediately after His Ascension:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:37)

The Flood happened after over a century - 120 years - of Gospel preaching by Noah and family.

But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' (Matthew 24: 48)

In the Parable, the Master had been away for a considerable enough time for the wicked servant to believe that He was delayed.

As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' (Matt 25:5-6)

In the Parable the Bridegroom does not arrive until after a delay until midnight.

"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants [fn] and entrusted to them his property............... Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. (Matt 25:14,19)

In this parable the servants have a long enough time to get considerable return for their investment and we are explicitly told that the Master would be away for a long time.

Clearly, our Lord didn't want His disciples to be looking up into the air expecting His Second Advent at any moment after His Ascension. They knew that the destruction of Jerusalem and the evangelisation of the World had to intervene - at the very least.

and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

The Apostles augment this view under the inspiration of Christ's Spirit, e.g. in Romans 9-11 and II Thess 2:3.

So the doctrine that Christians have always been and must always be obligated to be under the illusion that the World might end at any moment is just an evangelical myth elaborated into a dogma particularly by the influence of Dispensational Premillennialism; a dogmatic myth which does the rounds even in Reformed and amillennial circles.
 
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