1 Corinthians 10:13
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Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Romans 7
BobVigneault
Bawberator
That's a good response Patrick but then you need to be ready to demonstrate that Romans 7 is all about the believer and not an unsaved person which is what the Wesleyan will claim.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Then he can read romans 6 and 8 
Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
Tell them to do it then! And then let you know when they have arrived.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
That always works too unless they delude themselves into thinking they have arrived.
You could also point out to them that the struggle in Romans 7 is not experienced by unbelievers because they don't care about pleasing God in that way. Only the regenerate and believing heart cares to obey God in such a fashion and mourns that they cant obey.
alwaysreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm reading "Keep In Step with the Spirit" by J.I. Packer right now and it goes over the whole Wesleyan movement (among others) and deals with this whole problem very thoroughly. I highly recommend it.
(It has a whole separate section devoted to the problem of Romans 7 being about a "preconverted person")
(It has a whole separate section devoted to the problem of Romans 7 being about a "preconverted person")
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The Lords prayer requisitions God to "forgive us our tresspasses". 1 John 1:9 exhorts us to confess our sins.........
How does one not break the great commandment? This one does us in from moment to moment.
How does one not break the great commandment? This one does us in from moment to moment.
Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
I have had someone tell me they went a whole day without sinning once. I had to say it to them, "Oh Reeeeaaallly!"
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
[Edited on 7-1-2005 by Irishcat922]
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
[Edited on 7-1-2005 by Irishcat922]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Nonsense. Man will never fulfill the great commandment. Our intellects are scarred. Even when we sleep, in our dream state, God is not at the forefront. From the womb we are sinning.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Sin = trespassing the law of God
Fulfilling the Law = love (loving God with ALL our heart, ALL our soul, ALL our strength, and ALL our mind. and our neighbors as ourself).
So they can arrive at a point where they are 24/7 loving like crazy to their capacity without ever allowing .0000001 of their heart, soul, strength, and mind to waver...
The old dictum goes, lower the bar of the law and cheapen the grace of God. The best thing could be done would be to study the demands of the law on all people both non-Christian and Christian. It might even make a Calvinist outta them....We're how depraved? Man...then man wouldn't choose God in his own free will...Bingo.
Fulfilling the Law = love (loving God with ALL our heart, ALL our soul, ALL our strength, and ALL our mind. and our neighbors as ourself).
So they can arrive at a point where they are 24/7 loving like crazy to their capacity without ever allowing .0000001 of their heart, soul, strength, and mind to waver...
The old dictum goes, lower the bar of the law and cheapen the grace of God. The best thing could be done would be to study the demands of the law on all people both non-Christian and Christian. It might even make a Calvinist outta them....We're how depraved? Man...then man wouldn't choose God in his own free will...Bingo.
Charismatic Calvinist
Puritan Board Freshman
I have yet to meet a regenerate man or woman who has successively subdued and surrendered every remnant of Adamic unrenewedness (sp?) in their soul.
Good question...I'm not sure if I think anyone here has answered it...don't worry, I don't have an answer: Here's what the Scripture says
So, God will not provide us with a temptation that is beyond what we're able to bear...He will provide a way of escape: to say that it's impossible to live without sinning almost sounds like we're saying this verse isn't true. Are temptations ever more than we can bear? What about the escape? Is it a "real" option if it isn't in the realm of possibility?
[Edited on 8-1-2005 by Craig]
Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think it is either/or.
Sean,
One important thing --- that must be emphasized because it's never obeyed by those getting a wrong bent on theology...
NEVER, ever, never, ever read a Bible verse - ripped out of its context - even if it is parsed down with original language exegesis. Never ever!
Example: Romans is a letter that was read aloud, all the way through without stopping, to its original readers. (Paul is developing a specific progressive argument in this letter.) The point he makes in chapter 8 only has accurate meaning if one reads chapter 1-7 before that.
Here's a fun educational experiment to try on anybody (cultists included) that use isolated verses to create their own special doctrine.
Get a newspaper article (of any sort) - number the sentences in the article, 1,2,3,4,etc. Then ask them, can we know what the article is about - fully and accurately - if we only read sentences 3, 14, 22 and 32? Do the same thing with an insurance policy; a chocolate chip cookie recipe; directions on a medicine bottle. (If you leave out the chocolate chips -- that's a serious omission! It could mean the difference between heaven or hell.)
The point is - we literate, human beings never read any other sort of literature the way we like to cut up the Word of God. WHY is that? (BTW, the original manuscripts have no chpt/verse divisions.)
We must remember (for example) Paul wrote letters, to people, that read like letters. Would any of us take aunt Martha's letter and only read verse 28 and 39 and think we knew what she was trying to tell us? !
I've used this teaching model for many sorts of opposing believers and cultists, alike. It is really helpful because it gets us out of the entanglement of "Scripture wars" and makes a sensible case for common literacy skills. Who knows....if your opponent still resists...they have yet to ponder (in the dead of night) the truth of how human beings read anything to learn something. Maybe they will start reading Romans from chapter 1 and not stop 'till the end...like Martin Luther did. (We all know what happened to him!)
Robin
[Edited on 1-8-2005 by Robin]
One important thing --- that must be emphasized because it's never obeyed by those getting a wrong bent on theology...
NEVER, ever, never, ever read a Bible verse - ripped out of its context - even if it is parsed down with original language exegesis. Never ever!
Example: Romans is a letter that was read aloud, all the way through without stopping, to its original readers. (Paul is developing a specific progressive argument in this letter.) The point he makes in chapter 8 only has accurate meaning if one reads chapter 1-7 before that.
Here's a fun educational experiment to try on anybody (cultists included) that use isolated verses to create their own special doctrine. Get a newspaper article (of any sort) - number the sentences in the article, 1,2,3,4,etc. Then ask them, can we know what the article is about - fully and accurately - if we only read sentences 3, 14, 22 and 32? Do the same thing with an insurance policy; a chocolate chip cookie recipe; directions on a medicine bottle. (If you leave out the chocolate chips -- that's a serious omission! It could mean the difference between heaven or hell.)
The point is - we literate, human beings never read any other sort of literature the way we like to cut up the Word of God. WHY is that? (BTW, the original manuscripts have no chpt/verse divisions.)
We must remember (for example) Paul wrote letters, to people, that read like letters. Would any of us take aunt Martha's letter and only read verse 28 and 39 and think we knew what she was trying to tell us? !
I've used this teaching model for many sorts of opposing believers and cultists, alike. It is really helpful because it gets us out of the entanglement of "Scripture wars" and makes a sensible case for common literacy skills. Who knows....if your opponent still resists...they have yet to ponder (in the dead of night) the truth of how human beings read anything to learn something. Maybe they will start reading Romans from chapter 1 and not stop 'till the end...like Martin Luther did. (We all know what happened to him!)
Robin
[Edited on 1-8-2005 by Robin]
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