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The most "Charismatic" I've seen fellow Calvinists are when they are newly learning reformed doctrine and literally explode :flaming: into debate with any Evangelical that crosses their path.

That's when peace of the Spirit, speaking in love, anger management,.. and a good bat comes in handy in calming them down.


:roll:
 
Not to be different but I believe in tongues, healing, and prophecy as still being in works today. I'm very skeptical as to when it's "really happening" though.
That's my definition of being "charismatic."

I am one who doesn't believe those gifts ended shortly after Acts.

I am convinced of Calvin's correctness as well.

I may be an oxymoron to some people.
 
Bad Timing

JKLeo

I was posted after I saw your addition. I'm not offended in any way as my reply might seem I was.
 
Emotion versus reason

Back to joshua,

Hey. Is it because emotion versus reason seems to lead charismatic believers astray or is it something else that makes the two incompatible?

What are you're beliefs about tongues, healing, and prophecy, if I can ask? Is there foundation in the Word to dismiss the gifts today do you think or no? Our responses to the gifts are our responsibility and I agree we should not grieve God by forgetting Him when He gives the church these gifts.

Unfortunately in todays realm of beleivers, I believe it's a case of people who enjoy reason embracing doctrine (Calvinism here) at the cost of disregarding supernatural giftings entirely.

On the other hand, the charismatic may do likewise by overlooking the importance of doctrine by staying fixed to a large extent on gifts or worse, emotion in worship.

An MD I know is a testimony to a miraculous healing of pancreitis. I knew him and he had it for years and tried everything to find relief. He went to a small church where a man prayed for him and to this day, as far as I know, he is still healed by God.

To finish the story though, he moved on from our fairly conservative church to a charismatic one. Reformed man? probably not. But he gives Jesus Christ the glory.

We need to be careful not to dismiss God and his works in either case.
 
The only Charasmatic Calvinist I know of is Matt Slick who runs www.carm.org

And what's this about Piper? He doesn't believe in Ceasation? :question:

Bryan
SDG
 
Is this more of an individualistic type of thing, or are there actually reformed churches that would, by outward appearance, be considered to be charismatic? Do they practice the sign gifts in church or in private? And, if in private, weren't the sign gifts originally within the context of a worship service?

My experiences with charismatic churches have been few and far between. The impression that I got in my limited exposure is that the focus is on the person's experience with God, whereas I get the impression that the reformed focus is more on God and less on experience. They gather to worship God, rather than to experience the worship of God.

That's just my impression, though.

Bob
 
we probably need to clarify a charismatic church

What is that loosely or specifically?

To me the best charismatic church (an Assembly of God) might be considered more low-key.

What impressed me was that if people did say something I didn't understand, a person would stand up and translate it. (2 or three at most as Paul says)

It may not have been authentic tongues but it was orderly. Emotion was low. People stood and clapped with music if they wanted.

How does that fit in with our idea of charismatic. Are we thinking very differently? Less or more bazaar?
 
Hi folks. I consider myself 'charismatic' by the Biblical definition - I believe that all of the gifts of the Spirit are still extant today and operational.... HOWEVER.....

95% of the stuff we see in so-called 'charismatic' churches today is nothing more than psychological manipulation and folks moving along with the crowd around them. I believe God still heals today.... just not in every instance.

If any of you have ever heard of the Sovereign Grace Churches before (Josh Harris, C.J. Mahaney), they are Calvinistic and Charismatic. I've been to C.J.'s church before to hear Josh speak (great speaker). Their church website is http://www.covlife.org and Sovereign Grace Ministries' website is http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/ . Good material, good discussions.

C.J. will be speaking @ Capitol Hill Baptist (Mark Dever from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals' church) on Sunday @ 10:45 service.
 
Charismatics

I am a former Charismatic My greatest struggle was about Revelation what do you do with the doctrine of the finality of revelation or Sola Scriptura.

I read some of Grudem's argument's and frankly I don't think they hold up at all. He argues that new testament Prophets are not authoritative in the same sense that the old testament Prophets were. And that prophets in the church today are not under the scrutiny of scripture. He says that prophecy in the church today is simply an outspoken immpression that The Lord might drop into someone's mind.
If that is the case and I hope I am properly representing his opinion. Then would that not be classified as Authoritative Revelation? And if so is Scripture really complete. That is the problem I run into.:wr50:
 
My main problem with traditional Charismatics/Pentecostal/AGs is their heterodox view of sanctification, which, like Wesleyan & Keswick models, posits a crisis experience, after which the subject is a qualitatively different type of Christian than he/she was before.
 
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'More than anything, it's finding the necessity of these "gifts" since we have the complete cannon of God's Word. I find no further revelation necessary. Do you?'

As far as "prophecies", I think God does still use them in the church. I know a beautifully Christian old lady whose husband died suddenly, years ago-- her testimony is that about a week before before he died, God "told" her that it would happen. I asked her how she knew it was God, what she heard, etc. She said she couldn't describe it, except that she was certain that her husband would die quite suddenly, very soon, and knew that it was the Lord as you would know the voice of your friend; and when she came in and found him dead, she was prepared. There are similar instances of this type of "revelation" all throughout history-- especially during times of persecution. I believe in them. I think that it is not "adding to Scripture" because what is given is not binding for the church: the prophecies concern specific individuals and circumstances, and contain no new doctrine.
They have use for the church because they prepare individuals and strengthen their faith during difficult times. Sometimes it is the most difficult thing to see that God is behind the trial; and a "prophecy" beforehand would be a strong testimony to that.



[Edited on 3-26-2004 by a mere housewife]
 
[quote:b66974d1cb][i:b66974d1cb]Originally posted by joshua[/i:b66974d1cb]
Bryan and Kerry,
Out of curiosity, how do you know what is valid and what isn't? For example, when someone speaks what I would term "gibberish", is that, to you valid, or would you say that the gift of tongues is the actual use of a known language? [/quote:b66974d1cb]

Hi Joshua!

1 Cor. 14 says that the spirits of the prophets (those prophesying) are subject to the spirit of the prophets (scripture). Any revelation (supposedly) that comes forth can NEVER contradict what God has already clearly put forth in His word. Secondly, according to 1 Cor. 14, only one or two folks should prophesy or speak in tongues and then the rest are supposed to be quiet.

Period.

So all the nonsense I see on TV now is, in my opinion, anti-biblical and the product of folks' imaginations and emotions being stirred up.

Third, I believe that the languages spoken in the NT in Acts and 1 Cor. were known languages that the speaker hadn't previously learned. They were primarily used for the purpose of verification of the message of God - never for 'personal edification', 'personal prayer language' or any of the other stuff that goes on in charismatic churches nowadays. And an interpreter MUST be present, or the use of the gift is not considered valid. All this is outlined in 1 Cor. 14. It's one of the most ignored passages in scripture on the topic of spiritual gifts, but all the 'guidelines' are right there. So these mass revivals where folks have this 'breakout' of tongues.... is a bunch of emotionalism hyped up until a person is in another frame of mind and starts babbling.

I used to get the same feeling after being a really good party for hours on end... until things started feeling like it was a dream (no substances used, FYI.... :bigsmile: ). Folks at a good party would start dancin' when 'their song' came on and just keep on jammin' and/or chantin' the words to one part of a song over and over again.......Only difference with folks in churches is venue and content. And with it being something as close to the heart of a person as their religious commitment... expect a large emotional reaction.

Also on the whole language thing..... usually, tongues were a sign of judgment upon unbelievers (tongues are sign for unbelievers, prophesy for believers). And nowadays... wherever the word of God is, prophesy is no longer necessary - not in the role it played in the early church, which was teaching and new revelation. We have the canon now. But someone in a deep jungle of Africa or Brazil does not. And we may or may not know their language... can you imagine being a missionary and God giving you the ability to speak in that person's native language for the purpose of evangelism ? Even if once ?

Hope that clarified a lot. I'm more of a 'cessationist charismatic' if that makes sense. :bouncy:
 
"I guess, though, I wouldn't call such happenings prophecy, hence the quotations around the word."


What would such things be called though? They are prophetic utterances-- God reveals something, and it comes to pass.
 
Joshua,

I think in the case of this lady, and in other cases I have read about, one would have to conclude the utterances were from God for the glaring reason that they came to pass. Also, there is no support for a theory that they were from anywhere else, either in the people to whom they were given, the way they were given, or the results of them being given.

I will try to find an internet link about one man-- I think he was a Scottish Covenanter... It may take me some time to hunt it down.

My husband says that they should be called "predictions" because they do not involve doctrine, and "prophecy" implies doctrine.

My husband also told me about an instance of "tongues." A friend of ours has family in a seemingly sound charismatic church in France: a man in the church had an unsaved friend visiting from India, when another man in the church spoke in tongues. He was interpeted by another man (lots of men in this story) and was converted by this because the man who spoke in tongues spoke in Hindustani, and the man who translated interpreted correctly.

I know we don't judge things by experience: but the reason I am bringing up these experiences is because they fit Biblical patterns and prescriptions that we do judge by.
 
Joshua, here is the link-- actually found it on the PBoard :)

py3ak: "For more information on a person who seems to have had the gift of prophecy, try Alexander Peden at this site:
http://www.newble.co.uk/hall/others/menu.html"

I agree absolutely about gibberish. I am not trying to refute anything you've said-- I don't really know enough about this: but just show to show how a person can be a Calvinist, and yet (discerningly) accept evidence that would seem to go against "cessationism", at least in the way that I have understood it.
 
Calvinistic Pentacostals

In Okemos, MI [next door to East Lansing, MI], Craig DuMont pastors The Okemos Christian Center. This Church is affiliated with one of the old line pentacostal denominations. He is, and his congregation is theonomist, and generally Reformed in the Rushdooney/North tradition. The style of worship in his congregation is charismatic.

I am providing a link to his site so you can assess their theological prespective.

http://www.okemoschristiancenter.com
He has maintained friendly relations with Pastor Steve Pribble and his Orthodox Presbyterian congregation.

A baptistic reformed congregation has grown out of another charismatic congregation here in East Lansing. They stand in the Piper tradition. Many of the men there have read R. C. Sproul and John H. Gerstner.

[Edited on 20-11-2004 by yeutter]

[Edited on 20-11-2004 by yeutter]
 
From what I have read of Martyn Lloyd-Jones's life, (given that he was a charismatic) and that Iain Murray was no doubt influenced by him (in Piper's Pastor conference Lloyd-Jones was mentioned as Murray's hero), is there any indication in his (Murray's) writings that he was at least open to miraculous gifts?

Thanks
 
[quote:ca4009f313="Finn McCool"]From what I have read of Martyn Lloyd-Jones's life, (given that he was a charismatic) and that Iain Murray was no doubt influenced by him (in Piper's Pastor conference Lloyd-Jones was mentioned as Murray's hero), is there any indication in his (Murray's) writings that he was at least open to miraculous gifts?

Thanks[/quote:ca4009f313]

Actually the opposite is true. The Banner of Truth publishing (which was founded in part by Lloyd Jones) has refused to publish L-J's more unorthodox writings on spiritual gifts (I forget the name of the book right now). Iain Murray is one of the key leaders of the Banner.
 
A friend of my daughter invited her to their charismatic church. Told her if she didnt speak in tounges she had not recieved the "full anointing of the Spirit." They scared my daughter to death. She got up and walked out.
 
I come from a pentecostal background. I don't any longer believe in;

1) a "second blessing"

2) perfectionism

3) addition to Scripture.

As to what the Holy Spirit can do, that's up to Him, but He won't violate His own Word, I'm sure.
 
They scared my daughter to death. She got up and walked out.

Good. I'm glad she was scared and left. If anything truly supernatural would've happened, I'm convinced it would've been demonic.
 
I come from a pentecostal background. I don't any longer believe in;

1) a "second blessing"

2) perfectionism

3) addition to Scripture.

As to what the Holy Spirit can do, that's up to Him, but He won't violate His own Word, I'm sure.

Meg,

Wouldn't the Spirit be violating His word by bringing any kind of message (tongue, dream, vision, etc.)? Even if it was a tongue that supposedly repeated a passage of scripture or agreed with a portion of scripture, it is still believed to be from God. If that is so, then it's the Word of God and is equal with scripture which would be an addition to the Bible.

I hope I'm being clear on what I mean here.
 
I agree - I just feel strange about asserting as though I know all, what the Almighty can and can't do, just a scruple. Just talked to a "Charismatic Calvinist" today. He denied that it's perfectionism, described his "experience", seems to believe in an "exchanged life" though he did not use that phrase, goes to a PCA in the area, as well as his Pentecostal church. He says we (Presbyterians) don't accept the full range of worship, he told me about David dancing before the Lord. I reminded him that David was dancing before the Ark of the Covenant, which we don't need anymore, he didn't accept that argument. I am concerned & perplexed; I'm trying to cut loose from all this, thought I was progressing, now I'm wondering how I can discount an experience I didn't have. Need to learn logic.
 
I use to be a charasmatic too. Remember, God has given us a spirit of a sound mind, and self control. You won't find that in any charasmatic circles around. Add that to the clear violations of 1 Cor. 14, the devaluation of the apostolic witness regarding our salvation, and the spiritist/heretical origins of todays charasmatic movement and I don't think there's any reason not to doubt the validity of such a movement. It's clear as day to me that these so called "gifts" today are not genuine. The church has flourished for 2000 years without them, something which charasmatics just can't accept. That should be proof enough to them and us, that the saving power of God works through the faithful preaching of the gospel, not in the old apostolic signs which confirmed the gospel.

[Edited on 19-11-2004 by puritansailor]
 
Originally posted by turmeric
I agree - I just feel strange about asserting as though I know all, what the Almighty can and can't do, just a scruple. Just talked to a "Charismatic Calvinist" today. He denied that it's perfectionism, described his "experience", seems to believe in an "exchanged life" though he did not use that phrase, goes to a PCA in the area, as well as his Pentecostal church. He says we (Presbyterians) don't accept the full range of worship, he told me about David dancing before the Lord. I reminded him that David was dancing before the Ark of the Covenant, which we don't need anymore, he didn't accept that argument. I am concerned & perplexed; I'm trying to cut loose from all this, thought I was progressing, now I'm wondering how I can discount an experience I didn't have. Need to learn logic.

Meg, I can certainly relate, as I was raised Assemblies of God my whole life. It was a challenge getting out of that mindset - even after I intellectually "believed" in cessationism and the regulative principle, for instance, it was hard to get it out of my heart, and the almost subconscious mindset that had been so ingrained in me.

Is what you're struggling with the doctrine of cessation, that there specifically has been no extrabiblical revelation from God ever since the Apostolic era? Or is it the overall spiritual outlook and feelings that come from a charismatic view of worship and spirituality? Or is it both? For the first issue, I highly recommend you get O. Palmer Robertson's The Final Word. It is an extremely short, small book, which is why I was surprised it was so effective and convincing. It left no doubt in my mind that the clear biblical position was cessationism.

For the second issue, I urge to read Michael Horton's In the Face of God. I dare say it is has affected my spiritual outlook and devotional life more than any other book by a contemporary author. Going beyond bullet-point treatment on specific doctrines, it demonstrates the essence of Reformed spirituality and the whole Reformed outlook on life, worship and true intimacy with God. It shows the flawed nature of contemporary evangelical spirituality, and paints a wonderful and biblical portrait of how all the doctrines of the Reformed faith come together to form a gestault spiritual mindset and experience. It is the type of book that is invaluable for breaking out of the underlying views on spirituality that people like us have taken for granted, and for truly shifting your most fundamental ideas about our relationship with God toward a biblical, Reformed model. If you at all have the time to read this book, get it. While the cessationism that is clearly solidified in Robertson's book is ultimately essential as well, this book is much more valuable for those seeking an entire turnaround of their spiritual perspectives and hearts.
 
Don't know where my message went, hope I don't double-post. Thanks, Chris, I will try Michael Horton's book. I don't have an issue with cessationism; it's the whole being-spiritual dilemma. We got just steeped in the "higher life" thing when I was a kid. I don't think I was a believer, and I wasn't much interested really, but I absorbed more of it than I realized. I'm having to relearn everything, like, how does God lead us,etc.
BTW, took my exchanged life back, they gave me the wrong one!:D
 
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