A Case For Postmillennialism
- Thread starter Ryan&Amber2013
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Yes. I can think of two very close to me who are. Did you see my quote from Kenneth Gentry above claiming that there are a good number of amillennial Theonomists? Again, as Jacob rightly pointed out, Theonomy is, strictly speaking, an ethical system, not an eschatological one.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
My former pastor, Jack Sawyer, Moses and the Magistrate: Aspects of Calvin’s Political Theory In Contemporary Focus. WTS 1986.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Graduate
From what I heard of the Anabaptists, they seem like just plain nut cases.
MountainPilgrim
Puritan Board Freshman
I'd say that much is quite clear! Yet the more I learn about the Anabaptists and their "theological children," the more I find a disturbing heritage of sorts linking them to many practices in the modern Church. I believe history to be a wise teacher, and if the origins of a particular doctrinal conviction or practice can be traced to the Radical Reformers, that is enough evidence to urge an abundance of caution, at a minimum...The problem here, I hope you recognize, is that the label "Dominionism" and "Reconstructionism" is about as broad and meaningless as "Evangelical." Many of the Reconstructionists, for example, could not even agree with one another on what Reconstructionism is. In the history of the movement, you have on one side of the spectrum men like Gary North, and on the other side the compromised leftist Joel McDurmon, both of whom claim the name "Reconstructionist." So, since you have given no names, positions, or examples, but have really just painted in broad strokes against a mere label, the only possible interpretation many of us who are sympathetic to the aims of biblical Reconstructionism can give your post is that it is simply the prejudiced opinions of an uninformed and vague critic, and so ought not to be taken too seriously.
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
Another way too broad-brushed statement. If one can't sensibly distinguish between the beliefs and actions of personalities like Mathys and Bochelson (of Münster infamy) and those of leaders like Sattler and Simons, then they display either ignorance or perhaps prejudice with regard to church history.
MountainPilgrim
Puritan Board Freshman
I will be the first to admit that I am a layman of laymen, and may indeed be prejudiced or uninformed as you say. Yet my intended audience is not those who have diligently studied the various positions and arrived at an informed position, but those who are attracted to the surging popularity of Apologia, et al. as a reaction to rapid cultural change in the West. Now, I do think Dominionism is easier to define than you say, and as I understand it is simply the conviction that the institutional Church is called/commanded to conquer the culture and rule it according a Christian ethic (whether that be Theonomy, Theocracy, Social-Gospel, etc.). In fact your examples of North and McDurmon prove my point that the question is not whether the agenda is conservative or liberal, but rather whether the Church is called to such militancy.
If your particular brand of Reconstructionism (or whatever) is such that the dangers I listed are no issue, then Godspeed and be blessed! But which of those dangers, if present, is not a danger indeed? I listed those because I have witnessed each first hand. Anecdotal, certainly, but nonetheless real, and not an inaccurate description of potential issues with the growing popularity of the convictions at hand, at least as I have seen it across multiple arenas. I do not wish to misrepresent any person or position, but am simply explaining what I have witnessed myself.
MountainPilgrim
Puritan Board Freshman
Twice now I have been admonished for speaking with too broad a brush. It is not my intent to misrepresent or give an ill-informed or prejudiced position, so I will say no more. I have voiced my concerns based on my own anecdotal experiences and hope that it will prove informative or edifying; otherwise feel free to disregard my comments.
I will say only this: My main concern is that the Church be the Church and live up to the distinct Marks and agenda it was given by Christ. I do not pretend to have the answers as to how that is achieved, as I am but a layman indeed.
Thank you for this post. It helps me to see where you are coming from. And, hear me, I am very sympathetic to your concerns, brother. I completely agree that the greatest reason our land is in the state that it is in is not because the Church has not engaged enough in constructing social programs or electing the right people, but because the pulpit has been rendered inert through poor and soft preaching of the gospel of Christ. And I agree that therefore the greatest need in our nation is the unadulterated preaching of the gospel.
At the same time, I am sensitive to a number of other errors, the foremost of which is a false dichotomy, which I see so often in critics of Theonomy and Reconstructionism. It is not either the gospel or cultural influence. It can be, and I would argue that it must be, both. The other thing we need to be careful about is how we define and proclaim the gospel. I would posit that part and parcel of preaching the gospel is preaching Christ's salvation and Christ's rule over the present world (Rev. 1:5). So, again, we need to be careful not to set up a false dichotomy, as if it is either this or that, when it could be or must be both.
I would encourage you to read Greg Bahnsen's By This Standard: The Authority of God's Law Today. It is a very entry-level look at Theonomy y the man himself. You could read it in a few hours. After you have read it, I would love interact with you in private about it. I am confident you will find nothing in there that you find objectionable.
Anyway, as I was trying to argue earlier, this thread is not about Theonomy. But, since it was brought up, I figured I would weigh in. Therefore, this is the last post I'll make on the subject.
Richard2YHWH
Puritan Board Freshman
The Bible tells us in Revelation 21:1 that there will be a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. This is the ultimate conclusion. This is the higher story as he puts it. Yes, the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but as a church we are to always be sharing the good news of Jesus Christ; but the ultimate goal, or I should say hope; is that the time of Revelation 21 will get here sooner than later (At least that's my hope) But there are many things that will happen before then. Jesus will come and have the world under His feet (Millennial Reign) which yes, will be this place, but it will be much more different then it is now, speaking of the Millennial reign; but it won't be Revelation 21. How can 2 Peter 3:10-13 be anything other than what's going to happen before Revelation 21? God is going to destroy all of this, and I do want to get to that place Jesus promises us in John 14. Durban said this kind of thinking is foreign to a typical world view and a Biblical world view. What? The Gospel is about a kingdom; absolutely, but there will be two kingdoms; the millennial kingdom and the kingdom of heaven which will be our home. Is this not correct? I learned of Durban through his street ministry. I had watched several of those videos before I decided to go and listen to his actual teaching. It didn't take me long to see that his views are going way beyond the scoop of the reformed views (In my opinion). Heck, they even go beyond the dispensational view; which happens to be closer to the reformed view than any other view (In my opinion). Any way, when I got a good dose of Mr. Durban's beliefs, I ran. I would suggest you do the same (Also my Opinion) I didn't run because of his view on salvation, but his view on eschatology. I can't put my finger on it, but it's not right. It's like a mix of reformed theology, with Durban theology. Definitely not interested.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Graduate
Oh, do you really believe the promises and prophecies of the Bible? Aren't they meant to describe how wonderful things are right now?
I mean, how much can you expect just one Christ to do? We need to open our eyes and see through Spiritual lenses. The Bible's predictions of the glory of the Lord filling the earth, are, well, blown out of proportion by overzealous Christians that expect that to literally and visibly happen. Poor deluded souls. I think you have to take the statement in Psalm 2 and Danial 2 about the Stone filling the whole world and many other places in a more mature and meditative way. Aren't we all used to that in our everyday experiences? When Jesus prayed for His followers to become one even as He and the Father are one.
I will share a paragraph or two from the paper I am working on that I mentioned above.
Here's my opening statement from—Trivial Pursuit-It's Not a Game
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You must have noticed that the commercial is almost always better than the product.
The restaurant's menu is filled with beautiful photographs of lovely dinners and luscious burgers. Don't they seem irresistible? So you are enticed to order one of those delicious-looking burgers. But when it is served, it never looks like the picture. But you knew that's what would happen. We are just used to the advertisement being much better than the product advertised. That's life. Get used to it.
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—Stay tuned for more to follow.
John 17:11,20-23
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
Isn't it wonderful that all Christians are as one with each other as the Father and Son? Can't you just feel it? Never mind what we look and act like. Never you mind that we can't seem to get along with each other for five minutes. And so what if there are many denominations in the world? The world is a big place and we can't expect everyone to get along. Let's see... How many denominations of Christians are in the world?
ANSWER: According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there exist roughly 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2012.
Humm, that is quite a few.
But just how much can you expect from just one Jesus and one prayer?
But I digress. Jesus continues to pray that this oneness is also an outward, visible oneness. A oneness that will convince even the godless unbelievers that God did in fact send His son to die that the world may be saved.
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
I'll have to think about that. Maybe Jesus is like us and that God doesn't answer all His prayers. Or maybe He means judgment day. We will yell, "surprise!" we've been one all the time, only no one knew it. Not even us.Here are the next few paragraphs from what I am writing.
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Apologia: The sweeping generalization is a logical fallacy that I will attempt not to make. But I am going to speak very generally of what I have seen is generally true among the majority of professing Christians in our day. I know that some of you who do not fit this mold at all might be hurt by what I say. Still, others who are lazy and worldly will make fun of what I say. But for the rest of you, and I include myself, listen- Please listen.
I want to speak generally of the day we are living in. In my fifty years of experience as a Christian, I have concluded that we are currently a pathetic bunch. I think the Church at least the Church I'm familiar with in the United States is operating at a level as far below normal as Pentecost was above normal. And we are used to it and don't really expect all that much more.
The way I see it, the Church is a joke in the eyes of the world. And don't make the mistake of thinking that it's persecution. We are weak, without strength, with little confidence in what the great King of Heaven and Earth may yet do in this world. You know who I mean. The One to whom all power in heaven and earth has been given. I think one of the biggest signs of our times is the prevalence of a very negative form of amillennialism. As if we somehow have to explain why nothing is really happening or improving in Christendom. We make apologies for King Jesus.
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Eyedoc84
Puritan Board Sophomore
Come again?
There’s almost nothing that could be further from reformed theology and still be within the pale of orthodoxy than dispensationalism.
Sovereign Grace
Puritan Board Sophomore
Is it even within the pale of orthodoxy?
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
I think this is a really good thread. I never really used to be concerned with eschatology because I didn't think it really had an effect on my everyday life. But I am now seeing how it really does.
Eyedoc84
Puritan Board Sophomore
That’s a good question. I would consider MacArthur orthodox but very confused. Les Feldick was a heretic.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Graduate
As the well-worn saying goes—"You don't polish brass on a sinking ship."
Richard, please create a signature per Puritanboard rules. Click on the link below and read the rules on creating a proper one. Thanks.
Scottish Presbyterian
Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree with all of this. And I think I understand what you mean by "Dominionism". I don't endorse Durbin's eschatological teaching, even though he would label himself as postmillennial, as I would myself. Historically, postmillennialism has not been associated with what you call dominionism, and the dangers you point out are real and all to be avoided. However, that is not the postmillennialism of Knox, most of the puritans, and historic Scottish presbyterianism. It is right to expect God's promises for the glorious future of the church on earth to be fulfilled, without all that recent baggage.
Moderation.
Richard, you've been advised to study up on Reformed Theology and the Confessions. Here you come across as advocating for dispensationalism.
Stop promoting that. It is part of your promise not to promote unconfessional views. It is good for you to learn what confessional views are.
Here is my favourite Edwards quote from this book. I love it because the church can get distracted by many things, but Edwards always brings us back to the weighty things we need to consider:
The work of redemption is carried on in all ages of the world ... the work of God in converting souls, opening blind eyes, unstopping deaf ears, raising dead souls to life, and rescuing the miserable captives out of the hands of Satan, .... has been carried on in the world, ever since to this day, and will be to the end of the world. God has always, ever since the first erecting of the church of the redeemed after the fall, had such a church in the world...
And as God carries on the work of converting the souls of fallen men through all these ages, so He goes on to justify them, to blot out their sins, and to accept them as righteous in His sight, through the righteousness of Christ, and adopt and receive them from being the children of Satan, to be His own children; so he goes on to sanctify them, or to carry on the work of His grace, which He has begun in them, and to comfort them with the consulations of His Spirit, and to glorify them, to bestow on them ... that eternal glory which is the fruit of the purchase of Christ.
Sovereign Grace
Puritan Board Sophomore
I will say this, he’s open to learning the other eschatologies. Would postmillennialism fall under confessional? I know several Reformed have held to it. I know it teaches a general resurrection so I’d say it is. Asking for clarification as I don’t want to be a rebel rouser on here.
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Yes, it is within the confessional bounds. Many orthodox Reformed theologians of old have been on #datpostmill.
Right. Ian Murray's The Puritan Hope is a great introduction to the postmillenianism of earlier theologians.
To be clear, we are open to questions and discussions that help people learn. Just be careful about advocating something that is at odds with what we generally profess.
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Yes, that is the book I hoped would help convince me of post-mill.
Pretty funny! It convinced me to be more open to it.
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Seemed like a sincere question?
Plus, they gave their reasoning for asking:
It was an honest question. Not everyone is up to speed on these things.
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