Addressing invitations

[SRoper]

I'm having some difficulty figuring out the proper form of address for certain people. Emily Post, etc., while helpful, doesn't always get into the small details.

I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. Doctor I have heard both ways. One guide said that medical doctors should be addressed "Doctor" while others should be addressed "Dr." I'm not sure if this is correct. If this rule is correct, how do I write the title for a doctor of veterinary medicine?

In social correspondence, active duty officers are addressed by their rank. What about active duty enlisted men and NCOs?

Is it proper to address an assistant professor in the US "Professor"? What about an associate professor?

At what point to you address a man "Reverend" in the PCA? Is it when he gets his MDiv? When he's ordained? Installed as pastor?

How are lawyers supposed to be addressed? Is "Esquire" obsolete? What do you do for someone who is not currently practicing law?

Thanks in advance for helping me become more civilized.

 

[Scott1]

The classic work to resolve all such issues:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-William-Strunk/dp/020530902X]Amazon.com: The Elements of Style, Fourth Edition: William Strunk Jr., E. B. White, Roger Angell: Books[/ame]

 

[Montanablue]

I can help with some of this. My mother beat etiquette and proper forms of address into me as a teenager.

I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. Doctor I have heard both ways. One guide said that medical doctors should be addressed "Doctor" while others should be addressed "Dr." I'm not sure if this is correct. If this rule is correct, how do I write the title for a doctor of veterinary medicine?

Abbreviating "Doctor" is a matter of choice/taste and the rules for doing it vary by region. Where I am from (upper west), it would be acceptable to call all of these people Dr. and to abbreviate it. However, this might not be true in your region. I rather doubt people will quibble over it to be honest. (Although who knows!)

I'm not sure about the Ms. Doctor title - I've never heard of this. Are you referring to a female Doctor? If so, then it should be a plain "Doctor Amy Smith," no Ms. If you are referring to a woman who is married to a Doctor than it should be "Doctor and Ms. James and Amy Smith." If both of the couple are doctors, it should be "The Doctors Smith."

Is it proper to address an assistant professor in the US "Professor"? What about an associate professor?

It is always proper to address any professor (whether assistant, associate, etc) as Professor. (I know this for certain as my father is a professor!). If they have their doctorate, it is also acceptable to address them as Dr. Either is fine.

I unfortunately know nothing about very little about addressing lawyers, reverends, and military officers. One thing I do know - when addressing a Reverend, it is proper to write "The Reverend Fred Jones" rather than "Reverend Fred Jones." Reverend is actually an adjective rather than a proper title.

I hope that helps - good luck. This kind of thing is so confusing sometimes.!

 

[Edward]

How are lawyers supposed to be addressed? Is "Esquire" obsolete? What do you do for someone who is not currently practicing law?

Thanks in advance for helping me become more civilized.

I'll start with lawyers. While there is some geographic variance, use of Esq. to address an attorney is generally obsolete. The usual business form now is

John Smith
Attorney at Law

Dear Mr. Smith:

(Note: while most attorneys have J.D.s, Mr. rather than Dr. is the general form of address). For a formal usage, I'd omit the Attorney at Law.

For a non-practicing attorney, you could append the J.D. to the name, but I'd just go with the Mr. or Ms.

-----Added 7/20/2009 at 01:48:28 EST-----

I'm not sure about the Ms. Doctor title - I've never heard of this. Are you referring to a female Doctor? If so, then it should be a plain "Doctor Amy Smith," no Ms. If you are referring to a woman who is married to a Doctor than it should be "Doctor and Ms. James and Amy Smith." If both of the couple are doctors, it should be "The Doctors Smith."

As a traditionalist, let me quibble just a bit on this one.

The proper formal usage would be Doctor and Mrs. James Smith. If both are Doctors, Doctors James and Amy Smith would probably be the best solution.

And if the wife is the doctor, Mr., and Dr. would need to be used, although things can get messy in a hurry.

 

[a mere housewife]

Or you could elope.

 

[Montanablue]

Or you could elope.

This would be my way of dealing with addressing piles of wedding invitations. There is a high probability that both my mother and future mother in law will become highly annoyed with me when it comes time to deal with wedding details (read: wedding nonsense).

 

[SRoper]

I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. Doctor I have heard both ways. One guide said that medical doctors should be addressed "Doctor" while others should be addressed "Dr." I'm not sure if this is correct. If this rule is correct, how do I write the title for a doctor of veterinary medicine?

I'm not sure about the Ms. Doctor title - I've never heard of this. Are you referring to a female Doctor? If so, then it should be a plain "Doctor Amy Smith," no Ms. If you are referring to a woman who is married to a Doctor than it should be "Doctor and Ms. James and Amy Smith." If both of the couple are doctors, it should be "The Doctors Smith."

Ah, I see the source of the confusion--there's an ambiguos period after "Ms." It's supposed to mark the end of the sentence. "I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. [fullstop/period] Doctor I have heard both ways."

Thanks for the help!

-----Added 7/20/2009 at 04:23:30 EST-----

Or you could elope.

Nah, I actually like this kind of stuff.

 

[Montanablue]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion--there's an ambiguos period after "Ms." It's supposed to mark the end of the sentence. "I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. [fullstop/period] Doctor I have heard both ways."

Oh........... gotcha! I was really confused for few minutes when I read that.

As a traditionalist, let me quibble just a bit on this one.

The proper formal usage would be Doctor and Mrs. James Smith. If both are Doctors, Doctors James and Amy Smith would probably be the best solution.

And if the wife is the doctor, Mr., and Dr. would need to be used, although things can get messy in a hurry.

No, you're right that traditionally Dr. and Mrs. James Smith would be acceptable. In the past two decades, using both first names rather than just the male's has become the accepted etiquette (according to Ms. Manners anyway) , but depending on the couple, how old they are, and how sensitive they are about these things, one would probably be safe in omitting the wife's name. You have to be careful though - once someone thought that I didn't know his wife's first name because I made the mistake of being traditional and omitted it on the address label! That is the last time I will ever do that...

-----Added 7/20/2009 at 08:13:29 EST-----

I should probably share the story of how I found out that this man thought I had forgotten his wife's name. He sidled up to me at my potluck and whispered,"I just thought I'd tell you that my wife's name is Joanne." I replied, "Oh yes, I know." He looked extremely puzzled and then said, "But you forgot to put it on the invitation."

 

[he beholds]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion--there's an ambiguos period after "Ms." It's supposed to mark the end of the sentence. "I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. [fullstop/period] Doctor I have heard both ways."

Oh........... gotcha! I was really confused for few minutes when I read that.

As a traditionalist, let me quibble just a bit on this one.

The proper formal usage would be Doctor and Mrs. James Smith. If both are Doctors, Doctors James and Amy Smith would probably be the best solution.

And if the wife is the doctor, Mr., and Dr. would need to be used, although things can get messy in a hurry.

No, you're right that traditionally Dr. and Mrs. James Smith would be acceptable. In the past two decades, using both first names rather than just the male's has become the accepted etiquette (according to Ms. Manners anyway) , but depending on the couple, how old they are, and how sensitive they are about these things, one would probably be safe in omitting the wife's name. You have to be careful though - once someone thought that I didn't know his wife's first name because I made the mistake of being traditional and omitted it on the address label! That is the last time I will ever do that...

-----Added 7/20/2009 at 08:13:29 EST-----

I should probably share the story of how I found out that this man thought I had forgotten his wife's name. He sidled up to me at my potluck and whispered,"I just thought I'd tell you that my wife's name is Joanne." I replied, "Oh yes, I know." He looked extremely puzzled and then said, "But you forgot to put it on the invitation."

That is hilarious!!

I like being called "Mrs. [husband's name] Last name. (Like, "Mrs. John Doe.")
I even have an email address of that title. But I am particularly weird and obsessed with my husband : )

 

[Montanablue]

Jessi, I was so embarrassed!

I do have a question for you though. Because of the situation above, I now never refer to anyone as Mrs. John Smith etc (unless its an older relative who I know prefers that) Are you offended if people call you Ms. Jessi ________? I realize that this is quickly becoming a no win situation, so I try to take the approach that will offend the fewest people.

 

[he beholds]

Jessi, I was so embarrassed!

I do have a question for you though. Because of the situation above, I now never refer to anyone as Mrs. John Smith etc (unless its an older relative who I know prefers that) Are you offended if people call you Ms. Jessi ________? I realize that this is quickly becoming a no win situation, so I try to take the approach that will offend the fewest people.

hahaha...no I am not offended if they call me by my own name! I really just think it is sweet that I get to be Mrs. My Husband, but I think today, it is safer to use the woman's own name. Or "Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Smith."

I think *maybe* newly married young women are excited to use their official married name, but maybe not! I know my friends thought I was very cheesey tro make an email account with that name. I also think I am a rebel, and since it is no longer PC to be known by my husband's name, I am even more for it! Perhaps 100 years ago I would have wished for the opposite!

 

[Montanablue]

I think *maybe* newly married young women are excited to use their official married name, but maybe not! I know my friends thought I was very cheesey tro make an email account with that name. I also think I am a rebel, and since it is no longer PC to be known by my husband's name, I am even more for it! Perhaps 100 years ago I would have wished for the opposite!

No, this makes sense - I can see why someone would be excited about that! It seems as though everyone is becoming very hard to please nowadays. I don't worry so much about offending my family or friends - who I know will forgive me - but I do try not to offend colleagues as it could make things uncomfortable at the office or hurt me if they were to ever act as reference.

 

[Edward]

Jessi, I was so embarrassed!

I do have a question for you though. Because of the situation above, I now never refer to anyone as Mrs. John Smith etc (unless its an older relative who I know prefers that) Are you offended if people call you Ms. Jessi ________? I realize that this is quickly becoming a no win situation, so I try to take the approach that will offend the fewest people.

That is why one should stick to proper form, rather than trying to conform to the latest 'with it' trend. They aren't entitled to be offended.

As I'm sure you know, but others here may not (given the response to some of my previous advice on etiquette), referring to a lady as Mrs. Jane Smith suggests that her husband is no longer with her.

 

[Montanablue]

Jessi, I was so embarrassed!

I do have a question for you though. Because of the situation above, I now never refer to anyone as Mrs. John Smith etc (unless its an older relative who I know prefers that) Are you offended if people call you Ms. Jessi ________? I realize that this is quickly becoming a no win situation, so I try to take the approach that will offend the fewest people.

That is why one should stick to proper form, rather than trying to conform to the latest 'with it' trend. They aren't entitled to be offended.

As I'm sure you know, but others here may not (given the response to some of my previous advice on etiquette), referring to a lady as Mrs. Jane Smith suggests that her husband is no longer with her.

I was actually not aware of this. Its good to know, especially since I do know some older widowed ladies and I would hate to offend them.

Unfortunately, whether someone is entitled to be offended or not, they often are. Like I said, I'm not as concerned about it when its family or close friends, but as a professional, I try to conform to the most recent etiquette or I could get myself and my office in trouble.

 

[Edward]

Jessi, I was so embarrassed!

I do have a question for you though. Because of the situation above, I now never refer to anyone as Mrs. John Smith etc (unless its an older relative who I know prefers that) Are you offended if people call you Ms. Jessi ________? I realize that this is quickly becoming a no win situation, so I try to take the approach that will offend the fewest people.

That is why one should stick to proper form, rather than trying to conform to the latest 'with it' trend. They aren't entitled to be offended.

As I'm sure you know, but others here may not (given the response to some of my previous advice on etiquette), referring to a lady as Mrs. Jane Smith suggests that her husband is no longer with her.

I was actually not aware of this. Its good to know, especially since I do know some older widowed ladies and I would hate to offend them.

Unfortunately, whether someone is entitled to be offended or not, they often are. Like I said, I'm not as concerned about it when its family or close friends, but as a professional, I try to conform to the most recent etiquette or I could get myself and my office in trouble.

Traditionally, the Mrs. Jane Smith formula was used to indicate a divorce (when divorce was still somewhat scandalous.)

Here's a link to a modernized version of forms which yields ground which should not be yielded. Note the continued acceptability of that usage.

Emily Post Institute—Forms of Address

I agree, however, as to professional usage. One has to accommodate oneself to some degree (such as usage of Ms.). At least with judges, it is easy.

 

[Sven]

Biblical etiquette:

When you want to respectfully address a woman, especially your mother, you say "woman." John 2:4

When you address an elder man you want to say, "old man" or "hoar head." Leviticus 19:32

 

[Theoretical]

Don't forget for attorneys, there is the suffix - Esq.

 

[Edward]

Don't forget for attorneys, there is the suffix - Esq.

In some communities, lawyers reserve the 'Esq' on the address as a reproach for brothers (and sisters) at the bar who are just a little bit too full of themselves. In most legal communities, it's not routinely used anymore.

 

[Kevin]

Just a point of clarification... I have always assumed that if you refered to a woman as "Mrs Jane Doe" ( as apposed to 'Mrs John Doe') then you were identifying her as a divorcee...

Has this changed since my (1990 ed) of "Miss Manners New Guide to Etiquette for the 90's"?

 

[Montanablue]

Just a point of clarification... I have always assumed that if you refered to a woman as "Mrs Jane Doe" ( as apposed to 'Mrs John Doe') then you were identifying her as a divorcee...

Has this changed since my (1990 ed) of "Miss Manners New Guide to Etiquette for the 90's"?

I'm not Mrs. Manners, so take this with a grain of salt. I've found that in professional settings its become common to refer to to any woman using her first name. However, usually its Ms. Jane Doe (regardless of marital status) rather than Mrs. Jane Doe. Socially, things seem to be all over the board.

 

[SRoper]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion--there's an ambiguos period after "Ms." It's supposed to mark the end of the sentence. "I understand that all titles are to be spelled out except for Mr., Mrs., and Ms. [fullstop/period] Doctor I have heard both ways."

Oh........... gotcha! I was really confused for few minutes when I read that.

As a traditionalist, let me quibble just a bit on this one.

The proper formal usage would be Doctor and Mrs. James Smith. If both are Doctors, Doctors James and Amy Smith would probably be the best solution.

And if the wife is the doctor, Mr., and Dr. would need to be used, although things can get messy in a hurry.

No, you're right that traditionally Dr. and Mrs. James Smith would be acceptable. In the past two decades, using both first names rather than just the male's has become the accepted etiquette (according to Ms. Manners anyway) , but depending on the couple, how old they are, and how sensitive they are about these things, one would probably be safe in omitting the wife's name. You have to be careful though - once someone thought that I didn't know his wife's first name because I made the mistake of being traditional and omitted it on the address label! That is the last time I will ever do that...

-----Added 7/20/2009 at 08:13:29 EST-----

I should probably share the story of how I found out that this man thought I had forgotten his wife's name. He sidled up to me at my potluck and whispered,"I just thought I'd tell you that my wife's name is Joanne." I replied, "Oh yes, I know." He looked extremely puzzled and then said, "But you forgot to put it on the invitation."

That is hilarious!!

I like being called "Mrs. [husband's name] Last name. (Like, "Mrs. John Doe.")
I even have an email address of that title. But I am particularly weird and obsessed with my husband : )

My fiancee is looking forward to being called Mrs. Scott Roper. I remind her that actually she'll be Mrs. Randal Roper (Randal is my first name, but I usually go by my middle name). She doesn't like that so much, because she doesn't like the name Randal.

I'm still looking for help on the issues of enlisted men and when to use "The Reverend."

 

[Montanablue]

Scott, since everyone seems to be doing whatever they want these days without any concern for tradition or propriety, I think you should tell her to call herself whatever she likes.

 

[Edward]

I'm still looking for help on the issues of enlisted men and when to use "The Reverend."

I found a site that said all military were addressed by rank - it made no distinction between enlisted and officer.

See page 28 (Table 6.1) of this PDF http://www.usma.edu/protocol/images/p600_60.pdf


This is slightly different, but similar:
Spoken and Written Forms of Address for U.S. Government Officials, Military Personnel, Foreign Officials, Nobility, and Religious Officials

"For commissioned officers in the U.S. Armed services, the full rank is used as a title only in addressing letters and in formal introductions: one writes to Major General Sarah Miller, U.S. Army, and introduces her as Major General Miller. In greetings the full rank is shortened to General: "Dear General Miller." Similar acceptable shortened greetings follow categorized by full rank then greetings...

For enlisted personnel, a similar principle applies. Sergeants -- whether staff sergeants, gunnery sergeants, or first sergeants -- are greeted simply as "Sergeant"; privates first class are referred to as "Private"; and, in the Navy and Coast Guard, chief petty officers are referred to as "Chief." Other noncommissioned officers are greeted by their ranks, although, informally, lower grades may be referred to generically as "Soldier" or "Sailor."

As for The Reverend, I'd limit that to men who are ordained. (A J.D. doesn't make one an attorney, and I'd say that a M.Div. doesn't make one a Reverend. )

Finally, for military doctors, lawyers, and chaplains, this is useful:

MilitaryWives.com - Titles / Forms of Addresses

 

[he beholds]

So I'm reading a biography of Sarah Edwards (recommended to me here on the PB) and at that time, young, unmarried girls of a certain social class were called Mrs.
So this proves the fluidity of addresses and I think strengthens the case for doing what is current or at least what you personally prefer, since all of our preferences are all over the board. Again, I prefer to be addressed by my husband's name, but would not be at all offended by being addressed as Mrs. Jessica ___________.

But the things I am offended by are not usually those of an etiquette nature.