Become member in OPC or PCA Church?

[Dpatt2033]

As I continue to navigate and learn more about the NAPARC world, I have somewhat of a dilemma. I've been attending a PCA church and a OPC church simultaneously through the summer. I'm looking to become a member of either here in the Twin cities so that I may come under care and begin pursuing ordination. I like both , the PCA church is much larger and have already immersed me in some of the leadership training opportunities at the church. The OPC church is smaller but powerful preaching and more of an intimate feel. Why'd you choose the OPC over the PCA and vice versa?

 

[EvanF]

All things being equal, I prefer smaller churches where everyone knows eachother's names. Also, if one of the churches has morning and evening service, I'd lean in that direction.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

All things being equal, I prefer smaller churches where everyone knows eachother's names. Also, if one of the churches has morning and evening service, I'd lean in that direction.

Cheers!!!

 

[Frisian Gardener]

When I left the CRCNA about 10 years ago, the PCA as a whole seemed to be on the same trajectory, only earlier in the process (e.g., functional female officers, Tim Keller), but the OPC had a more fundamental commitment to Scriptural authority.

 

[DNM300]

Seems like the intimate access available at the OPC would be more ideal for working with you regarding testing/training/ordination.

 

[Theoretical]

If you have any consideration of potentially either being a church planter or missionary, you need to know the differences between the PCA and the OPC regarding both planting and missionary funding. The PCA essentially has a fundraising model as the default, such that plants and missionaries have to demonstrate and sustain most or all of their financial support. The OPC has fewer missionaries and plants, but the missionaries are fully denominationally supported and church plants receive 3 years of funding when they’re launched.

I’m a member of the PCA, and have been in 3 PCAs over the last 20 years, but especially the further north and west one goes, the more likely I’d lean towards the OPC. I’d also put very heavy weight on the church with the evening service, because that tells you a great deal about their priorities, especially if it’s well attended.

 

[Dpatt2033]

All things being equal, I prefer smaller churches where everyone knows eachother's names. Also, if one of the churches has morning and evening service, I'd lean in that direction.

Thank you. The smaller congregation does appeal and currently the OPC church alone has two services. The PCA option is currently in process of beginning evening services.

 

[Dpatt2033]

When I left the CRCNA about 10 years ago, the PCA as a whole seemed to be on the same trajectory, only earlier in the process (e.g., functional female officers, Tim Keller), but the OPC had a more fundamental commitment to Scriptural authority.

How has the OPC been for you since?

 

[Dpatt2033]

Seems like the intimate access available at the OPC would be more ideal for working with you regarding testing/training/ordination.

Thats very true, this I've thought about!

 

[Dpatt2033]

If you have any consideration of potentially either being a church planter or missionary, you need to know the differences between the PCA and the OPC regarding both planting and missionary funding. The PCA essentially has a fundraising model as the default, such that plants and missionaries have to demonstrate and sustain most or all of their financial support. The OPC has fewer missionaries and plants, but the missionaries are fully denominationally supported and church plants receive 3 years of funding when they’re launched.

I’m a member of the PCA, and have been in 3 PCAs over the last 20 years, but especially the further north and west one goes, the more likely I’d lean towards the OPC. I’d also put very heavy weight on the church with the evening service, because that tells you a great deal about their priorities, especially if it’s well attended.

Yes here in the siouxlands presbytery only about 3 churches in Minnesota altogether. Only two OPC but more potential to plant if you ask me. I also found it to be the same model concerning internships. Lots of emphasis on self fundraising in the PCA. Being the bigger denomination you'd think it'd be the opposite.

 

[Edward]

I prefer smaller churches

I prefer larger churches.

When I left the CRCNA about 10 years ago, the PCA as a whole seemed to be on the same trajectory, only earlier in the process (e.g., functional female officers, Tim Keller), but the OPC had a more fundamental commitment to Scriptural authority.

There is much more consistency in the OPC than in the PCA, The PCA requires more investigation at both the church and presbytery level. The last General Assembly appears to have gotten the denomination back on the right track, although there still some areas that need to be watched.

 

[Dpatt2033]

I prefer larger churches.

There is much more consistency in the OPC than in the PCA, The PCA requires more investigation at both the church and presbytery level. The last General Assembly appears to have gotten the denomination back on the right track, although there still some areas that need to be watched.

Investigation regarding discipline or ordination examinations?
Why do you prefer bigger churches?

 

[Edward]

Investigation regarding discipline or ordination examinations?

Role of women, administration of the sacraments, views on federal vision, and general wokeness on issues.

Why do you prefer bigger churches?

More resources to have an impact outside of the local congregation. If all of the money is needed for facilities and payroll, there isn't much left for outreach. And with more staffing, it is more likely that the pastor can play to his strengths, rather than having to cover all of the bases. No one can be a great preacher, a loving pastor, and a skilled administrator at the same time. A session can cover some of the gaps, but again, the skill sets are easier to find in a larger congregation than a small one.

 

[Dpatt2033]

Role of women, administration of the sacraments, views on federal vision, and general wokeness on issues.


More resources to have an impact outside of the local congregation. If all of the money is needed for facilities and payroll, there isn't much left for outreach. And with more staffing, it is more likely that the pastor can play to his strengths, rather than having to cover all of the bases. No one can be a great preacher, a loving pastor, and a skilled administrator at the same time. A session can cover some of the gaps, but again, the skill sets are easier to find in a larger congregation than a small one.

Got ya. I agree more resources can definitely be spread out more than just the local church. I too find that as a plus.

 

[Cornelius Van Halen]

Yes here in the siouxlands presbytery only about 3 churches in Minnesota altogether. Only two OPC but more potential to plant if you ask me. I also found it to be the same model concerning internships. Lots of emphasis on self fundraising in the PCA. Being the bigger denomination you'd think it'd be the opposite.

I'm a PCA pastor serving as a missionary/church planter. I did fundraising. There are real benefits to fundraising, and it has provided my family churches that have skin in the game - the churches and individuals who support us, pray where they put their money. We are checked on frequently, prayed for by multiple congregations on a monthly basis, and we have pastors who deeply care for us. And its outside of a single presbytery. There are multiple presbyteries in the States are prayerfully invested in the mission, and are eager to send support teams, when it makes sense to do so. It might sound bizarre, but fundraising made the PCA feel smaller to me. Just two cents from someone who once loathed support raising, but now believes the model to be a good thing.

Also, fundraising helped me with the fear of man - particularly rich men! It also trained me to talk about money in a healthy way, something which all ministers ought to be able to do.

However, if you are pursuing ordination, I understand that the OPC is in need of men. If it's all the same to you, perhaps the fact that the workers are few is a worthy nudge towards the OPC - it would be an answer to many prayers for faithful men to rise up in that denomination!

 

[SolaScriptura]

When you say the PCA church is "much larger" than the OPC church... are you willing to be more concrete? If the PCA church is 100 and the OPC church is 20... 100 is "much larger" than 20, but 100 is a small church... and 20 is struggling to keep the lights on. But if the PCA church is 500 and the OPC church is 100 that changes things. So "much larger than" really needs to be fleshed out with concrete numbers for concrete counsel.

Regardless of these 2 particular congregations... You'll DEFINITELY have many many more options long term in the PCA - if for no other reason than the vast difference in size between the two denominations. And if the PCA church has already "immersed" you in leadership training opportunities, that is something I'd prize very highly.

 

[Dpatt2033]

I'm a PCA pastor serving as a missionary/church planter. I did fundraising. There are real benefits to fundraising, and it has provided my family churches that have skin in the game - the churches and individuals who support us, pray where they put their money. We are checked on frequently, prayed for by multiple congregations on a monthly basis, and we have pastors who deeply care for us. And its outside of a single presbytery. There are multiple presbyteries in the States are prayerfully invested in the mission, and are eager to send support teams, when it makes sense to do so. It might sound bizarre, but fundraising made the PCA feel smaller to me. Just two cents from someone who once loathed support raising, but now believes the model to be a good thing.

Also, fundraising helped me with the fear of man - particularly rich men! It also trained me to talk about money in a healthy way, something which all ministers ought to be able to do.

However, if you are pursuing ordination, I understand that the OPC is in need of men. If it's all the same to you, perhaps the fact that the workers are few is a worthy nudge towards the OPC - it would be an answer to many prayers for faithful men to rise up in that denomination!

thats a great perspective thank you. I Also didn't know the need of the OPC in that light.

 

[Dpatt2033]

When you say the PCA church is "much larger" than the OPC church... are you willing to be more concrete? If the PCA church is 100 and the OPC church is 20... 100 is "much larger" than 20, but 100 is a small church... and 20 is struggling to keep the lights on. But if the PCA church is 500 and the OPC church is 100 that changes things. So "much larger than" really needs to be fleshed out with concrete numbers for concrete counsel.

Regardless of these 2 particular congregations... You'll DEFINITELY have many many more options long term in the PCA - if for no other reason than the vast difference in size between the two denominations. And if the PCA church has already "immersed" you in leadership training opportunities, that is something I'd prize very highly.

Large as in the PCA church is about 25-0 and the OPC church abut 75.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Large as in the PCA church is about 25-0 and the OPC church abut 75.

I think you mean the PCA congregation is about 250 and the OPC congregation is about 75, correct?

 

[Dpatt2033]

I think you mean the PCA congregation is about 250 and the OPC congregation is about 75, correct?

lol serious typo my fault. Yes PCA about 250, OPC about 75.

 

[Kinghezy]

I understand that the OPC is in need of men. If it's all the same to you, perhaps the fact that the workers are few is a worthy nudge towards the OPC

Per Douglas Clawson*, PCA is expecting to need 200 new men each year for the next 10 years to handle attrition (e.g. men retiring). I think he said OPC has 10% of pulpits vacant and UrC has 20% of pulpits vacant He painted a picture that much of the North America reformed world is facing a minister.

My point being, it seems like there may be shortages many places in the reformed churches (maybe even the broadly evangelical churches?), and any place he goes is likely helpful.

* He is the outgoing general secretary of the OPC foreign missions, and was recently at my OPC church for Sunday School.

 

[darrellmaurina]

Several strong cautions here on both the OPC and the PCA since you are seeking ordination, but (if I remember correctly) are from a baptistic/Baptist background and have studied at a non-Reformed seminary.

The OPC is far more consistent than the PCA in being strict with its ordination requirements for both pastors and ruling elders. If you were a layman who perhaps had previously served in lay leadership roles, but you were not seeking ordination as a pastor, that could be a major advantage to the OPC over the PCA. There are always occasional outliers, but you can assume that in nearly all OPC churches, not only the man in the pulpit but all (or nearly all) of the ruling elders will be VERY well taught in the Reformed faith and will be men you can learn from. Right now, being from a loosely Reformed background, you may not yet even know what you don't know, and time as an ordinary layman in the OPC with no leadership or teaching role will help you find out the depths and details of the Reformed faith, including things you may not even have yet thought to ask.

Not saying that can't happen in the PCA -- it can and does -- but a lot depends on the local church, the local pastor, and the local elders. You can assume consistently high standards of confessional integrity in the OPC. With the PCA, you need to ask hard questions of each local church.

Conversely, I have seen cases, firsthand, in which people who were too Reformed for their previous denominations were able to walk into PCA congregations and were made elders within a few years. I know cases of seminarians or even ordained ministers who were immediately, or almost immediately, taken under care of a PCA presbytery or even admitted into the PCA ministry. The fact that a person got into trouble for being Reformed in a previous denomination was taken as positive proof that whatever a man's theological weaknesses or lack of knowledge, "his heart was in the right place," and any problems could be worked out with a good mentor.

That just is not going to happen in most OPC congregations. You won't walk into a church and get offered leadership roles without SERIOUS examination, and significant time commitments, unless you are personally known on a deep level to the OPC elders and pastor. Even then, VERY hard questions will be asked, and should be asked, by the presbytery when you seek to come under care if you haven't already spent a lot of time in a local OPC church.

I know exceptions exist, but very few men can go from being seminarians in a Baptist or baptistic seminary and be able to immediately serve as elders, let alone as ordained pastors, in a confessionally Reformed denomination without SERIOUS "time in the chair" and detailed examination and teaching.

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins" is not human opinion but God's inerrant word in I Timothy 5:22.

(EDIT to prevent problems: No, I am **NOT** saying that being Baptist is to partake in other men's sins. What I'm saying is that we need to SERIOUSLY examine people, and that a serious examination takes SERIOUS time to get to know them well. That usually is many years of observing someone as a private member with no teaching role allowed, and then allowing him to teach catechism or Sunday school on a trial basis to examine his gifts, and only after serious examination considering him as a candidate for elder, and then MAYBE sending him to seminary. That takes years to get to know a man well, and to know his wife and family and how he heads his home and his personal life, not just a few months.)

Before people say that they know a lot of good PCA presbyteries and local sessions that will insist on SERIOUS examination and high standards: I don't disagree. I know they are out there.

I also know the PCA is a mixed bag, and I know that not only from what I have seen for years with other people, but also from my own direct personal experience. A PCA congregation tried, not just for years but for well over a decade, to get me to accept a call as an assistant pastor. There is no way I belong in any leadership role in the PCA, not as a local elder and ABSOLUTELY NOT as an ordained pastor. I know that, and two different OPCs I attended when I lived in other states knew that. I never questioned that although I was welcome to attend an OPC, I don't belong in OPC leadership roles. That isn't any criticism at all of the OPC but a compliment -- they enforce their standards, and SHOULD. However, I saw firsthand in the PCA, and it wasn't just one church, that not only local churches but even in some cases presbytery leadership simply would not take "no" for an answer and kept trying to convince me to become a PCA pastor. I cannot imagine that happening in the OPC, and I was very surprised that anyone in the PCA would be trying to recruit me.

There's something wrong when a man who knows he shouldn't be taking vows because of what SHOULD be unacceptable exceptions to the Westminster Standards keeps getting pressured to join the PCA so he can be ordained in the PCA.

My experience is not just mine and I've seen it repeatedly with others.

The OPC will insist, and will be quite correct in insisting, that you understand the confessions at a deep level before you are even considered for church office. They will be right in doing so.

The PCA may do that as well, depending on the local church and presbytery.

Or maybe not.

Don't take the easy route. Just because doors are being opened widely for you doesn't mean they are doors you should walk through because they're easy.

Recognize that there are REASONS why the PCA is much larger than the OPC. Some of those reasons are good. Some are not.

So much depends on the local church and the presbytery that the best advice is to keep eyes wide open, and ask lots of questions, and be careful not to mistake friendliness and open doors for being a good place for you to minister for the rest of your life.

Joining a Reformed denomination is NOT like joining a local Baptist or independent church. Especially if you are preparing for ordination as a pastor. You are joining an entire denomination of churches, and you need to be asking questions about whether not only the local church but the denomination is a good fit.

The PCA may be the right place for you. Or maybe the OPC, or ARP, or some other Reformed or Presbyterian denomination.

What you do not want to do is make a decision based on what seems to be easy and then find out later that the answers you got from a local body of elders do not apply to the presbytery in which you will be seeing to come under care.

I hope this helps.

It's a whole different way of thinking about ecclesiastical affiliation than you probably have been thinking in your prior church life.

 

[Dpatt2033]

Several strong cautions here on both the OPC and the PCA since you are seeking ordination, but (if I remember correctly) are from a baptistic/Baptist background and have studied at a non-Reformed seminary.

The OPC is far more consistent than the PCA in being strict with its ordination requirements for both pastors and ruling elders. If you were a layman who perhaps had previously served in lay leadership roles, but you were not seeking ordination as a pastor, that could be a major advantage to the OPC over the PCA. There are always occasional outliers, but you can assume that in nearly all OPC churches, not only the man in the pulpit but all (or nearly all) of the ruling elders will be VERY well taught in the Reformed faith and will be men you can learn from. Right now, being from a loosely Reformed background, you may not yet even know what you don't know, and time as an ordinary layman in the OPC with no leadership or teaching role will help you find out the depths and details of the Reformed faith, including things you may not even have yet thought to ask.

Not saying that can't happen in the PCA -- it can and does -- but a lot depends on the local church, the local pastor, and the local elders. You can assume consistently high standards of confessional integrity in the OPC. With the PCA, you need to ask hard questions of each local church.

Conversely, I have seen cases, firsthand, in which people who were too Reformed for their previous denominations were able to walk into PCA congregations and were made elders within a few years. I know cases of seminarians or even ordained ministers who were immediately, or almost immediately, taken under care of a PCA presbytery or even admitted into the PCA ministry. The fact that a person got into trouble for being Reformed in a previous denomination was taken as positive proof that whatever a man's theological weaknesses or lack of knowledge, "his heart was in the right place," and any problems could be worked out with a good mentor.

That just is not going to happen in most OPC congregations. You won't walk into a church and get offered leadership roles without SERIOUS examination, and significant time commitments, unless you are personally known on a deep level to the OPC elders and pastor. Even then, VERY hard questions will be asked, and should be asked, by the presbytery when you seek to come under care if you haven't already spent a lot of time in a local OPC church.

I know exceptions exist, but very few men can go from being seminarians in a Baptist or baptistic seminary and be able to immediately serve as elders, let alone as ordained pastors, in a confessionally Reformed denomination without SERIOUS "time in the chair" and detailed examination and teaching.

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins" is not human opinion but God's inerrant word in I Timothy 5:22.

(EDIT to prevent problems: No, I am **NOT** saying that being Baptist is to partake in other men's sins. What I'm saying is that we need to SERIOUSLY examine people, and that a serious examination takes SERIOUS time to get to know them well. That usually is many years of observing someone as a private member with no teaching role allowed, and then allowing him to teach catechism or Sunday school on a trial basis to examine his gifts, and only after serious examination considering him as a candidate for elder, and then MAYBE sending him to seminary. That takes years to get to know a man well, and to know his wife and family and how he heads his home and his personal life, not just a few months.)

Before people say that they know a lot of good PCA presbyteries and local sessions that will insist on SERIOUS examination and high standards: I don't disagree. I know they are out there.

I also know the PCA is a mixed bag, and I know that not only from what I have seen for years with other people, but also from my own direct personal experience. A PCA congregation tried, not just for years but for well over a decade, to get me to accept a call as an assistant pastor. There is no way I belong in any leadership role in the PCA, not as a local elder and ABSOLUTELY NOT as an ordained pastor. I know that, and two different OPCs I attended when I lived in other states knew that. I never questioned that although I was welcome to attend an OPC, I don't belong in OPC leadership roles. That isn't any criticism at all of the OPC but a compliment -- they enforce their standards, and SHOULD. However, I saw firsthand in the PCA, and it wasn't just one church, that not only local churches but even in some cases presbytery leadership simply would not take "no" for an answer and kept trying to convince me to become a PCA pastor. I cannot imagine that happening in the OPC, and I was very surprised that anyone in the PCA would be trying to recruit me.

There's something wrong when a man who knows he shouldn't be taking vows because of what SHOULD be unacceptable exceptions to the Westminster Standards keeps getting pressured to join the PCA so he can be ordained in the PCA.

My experience is not just mine and I've seen it repeatedly with others.

The OPC will insist, and will be quite correct in insisting, that you understand the confessions at a deep level before you are even considered for church office. They will be right in doing so.

The PCA may do that as well, depending on the local church and presbytery.

Or maybe not.

Don't take the easy route. Just because doors are being opened widely for you doesn't mean they are doors you should walk through because they're easy.

Recognize that there are REASONS why the PCA is much larger than the OPC. Some of those reasons are good. Some are not.

So much depends on the local church and the presbytery that the best advice is to keep eyes wide open, and ask lots of questions, and be careful not to mistake friendliness and open doors for being a good place for you to minister for the rest of your life.

Joining a Reformed denomination is NOT like joining a local Baptist or independent church. Especially if you are preparing for ordination as a pastor. You are joining an entire denomination of churches, and you need to be asking questions about whether not only the local church but the denomination is a good fit.

The PCA may be the right place for you. Or maybe the OPC, or ARP, or some other Reformed or Presbyterian denomination.

What you do not want to do is make a decision based on what seems to be easy and then find out later that the answers you got from a local body of elders do not apply to the presbytery in which you will be seeing to come under care.

I hope this helps.

It's a whole different way of thinking about ecclesiastical affiliation than you probably have been thinking in your prior church life.

This was great and you shot it to me straight.Thank you sir

 

[darrellmaurina]

This was great and you shot it to me straight.Thank you sir

Glad to help.

In the vein of "on the one hand, but on the other hand" -- ask your own questions. Hard ones. Ask them to the local leaders of both the OPC and PCA you are considering in your city, and since you are seriously considering the pastorate, ask the OPC and PCA pastor if they would be willing to recommend you to the presbytery to come under care, and what steps you would have to take to do that. If the answer is yes, ask if you can set up a meeting with the relevant officials of the presbytery to discuss what steps you would have to take with the presbytery. Don't assume that what you are being told by the local leadership will be what you hear from the presbytery leadership. The local leaders probably know you much better than the presbytery leaders and may raise fewer questions because they know you. It's also a fact of life that some pastors are detail-oriented men and some are not. The people in presbytery leadership do (or at least should) know the denominational rules well, and how they get applied in the real world beyond the formal text. That isn't always the case for local pastors who may be doing a great job in their local church but know their gifts do not include administrative roles, and quite properly leave that to those in the presbytery who are good at such things. What you don't want to do is join a local church and find out that the presbytery has a different view of you than the local elders do.

If you're going to be a Presbyterian, be one in reality, not just theory. A presbytery is NOT "just an association." It is a regional church. It, not the local church, is responsible for training and ordaining men to the pastorate. That is NOT how Baptists and most American evangelicals think, and it may be a paradigm shift in your thinking.

You may be impressed with the answers from the PCA at both the local church and presbytery level and none of the concerns I raised may apply.

There are people on the Puritan Board who will point out that I'm not a member of the PCA or OPC. Fair enough.

However, I attended almost every OPC General Assembly back in the 1990s. I have attended two different OPC congregations for extended periods in two different states when I lived there. I personally knew quite a number of OPC ministers of the older generation, and GI Williamson tried to encourage me to consider the OPC. (To his credit, he asked me the right questions, and he quickly determined that I didn't belong in the OPC ministry, and he was right.) I think I know the OPC about as well as anyone from the outside can know it. I'm impressed by the OPC, and I also know I don't belong there.

I want to be clear that what I said before, and what I am saying now, is NOT a criticism of the PCA. It's a big tent, but that doesn't mean it's a bad place. It's the right place for some men. It may be the right place for you. Or it may not be.

I've seen men and churches in the PCA that could easily be in the OPC, doctrinally speaking, but prefer the Southern culture of the PCA. I've seen people in the PCA who are not in any way Southern, and who are soundly Reformed, but for specific doctrinal reasons belong in the PCA. (The most common reason is the two-office/three-office distinction, which is a legitimate historical difference between Southern and Northern Presbyterianism.) I've seen men who, because of specific local situations in the OPC when they were in seminary, knew they would have trouble with an especially strict OPC presbytery but would be among the most strictly confessional people in the PCA, and for that reason chose the PCA when they were in seminary.

I've also seen men who, by the common American standards of being Reformed would be considered not just confessional but pretty strictly so, but have specific exceptions to the confessions that are widely accepted in the PCA that would be problems in the OPC. Those men belong in the PCA and I'm glad they're in the PCA, where they can be, and have been, a positive influence.

It will take just a few hours of googling, or just a few hours of reading the Aquilla Report, to see that those are not the only categories of men and churches in PCA. Find out what the local PCA presbytery is like, not just the local church.

Again, I hope this helps.

There are men who belong in the PCA and you may one of them. Same for the OPC. Do your research, and give the men involved the opportunity to SERIOUSLY examine you. What you don't want is to make a decision without enough facts and find out later that you should have been in a different denomination, and then have to start things all over again, getting to know a different group of pastors and elders and presbytery committee members. That could mean a delay of years.

 

[JvMill]

I’m not sure I completely understand what you mean, but I would be concerned about a church that brought you into any kind of leadership role without even being a member.

I say this as someone who is joining a PCA church in the coming months. And hoping to becoming a pastor (in 5-10 years).

 

[darrellmaurina]

I’m not sure I completely understand what you mean, but I would be concerned about a church that brought you into any kind of leadership role without even being a member.

I say this as someone who is joining a PCA church in the coming months. And hoping to becoming a pastor (in 5-10 years).

While I can't speak for @Dpatt2033 (Darion Patterson), I do think there may be some underlying ecclesiological issues here that can lead to honest misunderstandings between traditionally Reformed people (i.e., the NAPARC world and related denominations) and people who are from a non-Reformed background and have become theologically Reformed, but have not seen how Reformed church government works, or at least is supposed to work, in actual practice.

Church membership matters in the Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed world. It is supposed to matter in the Reformed Baptist world, and to their credit, it often does. Same for some but not all other groups that are soteriologically Reformed. I realize there is a lot more variation in the Presbyterian world on what a local church can do with pulpit supply, but the Dutch Reformed denominations often have rules that say people who are not ordained can only fill a pulpit under certain conditions such as having been "licensed to exhort" by the denomination following an examination by a classis or consistory, depending on the specific denomination, which for seminarians usually happens only after completing the first year of seminary. Rules for Presbyterian pulpit supply can vary a great deal between denominations.

That just isn't the way a lot of American evangelicalism works.

In a lot of evangelical circles, it is not just allowed but common for a man to go to seminary, look at a list maintained by the field education office of churches seeking pulpit supply, interns, and people in assistant pastor roles, and send applications. What local church or denomination a seminarian belongs to may not make a lot of difference if the church seeking pulpit supply, a paid intern, or even an assistant pastor likes the man.

In the NAPARC world, it's not unheard of for a person who is a member in good standing and has received proper licensure (or other authorization to preach) to serve in a different NAPARC denomination. This is not new -- even way back in the 1980s, I knew a man in one of the more conservative NAPARC denominations who was studying at RTS-Jackson and spent a lot of his time preaching in PCA churches because his own denomination had very few churches in the South. I personally have been invited to fill a lot of very conservative NAPARC pulpits, but I'm probably a special case because back in the 1990s I was pretty well known in a lot of places that normally would never let a person from my ecclesiastical background fill their pulpits.

In those cases, church membership still counts, but it's one NAPARC church recognizing the church membership and licensure decision of another NAPARC church, or of a non-NAPARC church that is regarded as being sound and whose elders have made decisions that can be trusted.

What Darion is talking about is different.

If I understand his situation correctly -- and please correct me, Darion, if I'm wrong -- he's from a Baptist or baptistic background, attending a non-Reformed seminary, has become theologically Reformed, and since he wants to join a local OPC or PCA church, I assume he is now not only confessionally Reformed but now also believes in infant baptism, so he can't subscribe any longer to the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession.

That means if he's currently a member of a Baptist or baptistic church, it would be entirely reasonable and legitimate for the church where he is a member to say, "You are no longer in agreement with us, doctrinally, on baptism (and perhaps on other things) and we can no longer endorse you to preach in churches, but we will happily transfer you to a Reformed church that practices infant baptism." That's the best-case scenario with a Reformed Baptist church that recognizes the PCA and OPC as brothers in a shared faith. Sadly, a lot of Baptist and baptistic churches outside the Reformed Baptist world might not be as cooperative with a member who no longer believes a core part of being Baptist, i.e., believers baptism. I've seen bad things happen when people change their views on baptism

What Darion is doing is not as simple as an OPC man transferring to a PCA, or even transferring from a Presbyterian church that holds to the Westminster Standards and joining a Dutch Reformed denomination that holds to the Three Forms of Unity. The confessions are different but they're close.

Baptism is not a minor matter. It's not the most important thing -- I have a decades-long history of saying that Reformed Baptists are brothers in the Reformed faith -- but because baptistic views often indicate significant differences on covenant theology or even (in the case of MacArthur people) a dispensational or semi-dispensational position, a seminarian from a baptistic background seeking to join a NAPARC denomination should have a REALLY serious examination before being allowed to teach or lead anything, and unless the man is personally known to the elders, most of the time that means significant time as a private member to observe his doctrine and life.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I don't know if this is the best way to compare it, but I think of the PCA in comparison to going to a major league baseball stadium. Each stadium is going to be unique and different from the other, with its own flavor and way of doing things. But at the same time they are all going to have certain traits in common. Then I think of the OPC as going to something like a Chick-fil-A. You know exactly what to expect with the uniformity no matter which one you choose to go to.

 

[MChase]

One difficulty that you may find in the OPC, as a result of greater degree of uniformity, is that the Overton window is quite a bit more narrow. In many ways, that is a good thing. Questions over women in office, for instance, are not as prevalent in the OPC as in the PCA.

The downside, is that if you were to fall outside of that window, life will be significantly more difficult for you. Things that fly in the PCA may not in the OPC. Since you may be newer to confessional reformed views, it is likely that those views might continue to evolve. If your views continued to evolve such that they came into line with a strict understanding of the confession, you might find life in the OPC more frustrating than in the PCA.

The OPC, while on paper is more exacting in its understanding of the confession, will likely push back harder on you if you were to take hard-line positions on creation, the sabbath, worship, or the original confession's understanding of the civil magistrate. I am a couple of steps to the right of the OPC on a few things, but I would probably find myself more at home at a Southern PCA Church than I would almost anywhere in the OPC. The one last thing I will add on this, is that the OPC tends (not in every case but it is a tendency) to have Kuyperian instincts regarding their view of children. Given the early influence Van Til, Stonehouse, R. B. Kuiper, and other CRC type of men, there is sometimes a tacit presumption that comes out in preaching that is not the case in the experimental denominations (HRC, FRC, Free Church Continuing, Presbyterian Reformed).

 

[jwithnell]

Overton window

I'm not familiar with this term.

 

[MChase]

I'm not familiar with this term.

Basically, the range of acceptable views.