Biblical Separation

[Answerman]

Here is the situation. I have a friend here at work that is an elder in the PCUSA who is struggling with the issues facing that denomination (such as its pro-abortion stance and ordaining homosexuals). He seems willing to accept that if the denomination was wrong on essential doctrines such as the Trinity or justification that he would leave or recommend that the church leave the denomination but since their deviation is not on doctrine per se but on social issues that this does not reach that level. I keep telling him that the real battle was lost back in the early 1900’s when they went liberal and the PCA and OPC split off as a result. The elders in his church are making the argument that schism is a grievous sin and that they feel that the Biblical thing to do is stay in the denomination and keep fighting. I have recommended that a good start would be to read Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism but I don’t think he is willing to read a book on the subject just yet. He seems willing to read short articles or listen to MP3 audio sermons and lectures presenting the Biblical position on this subject. So I am asking for anyone that could type a brief defense of Biblical case for separation or if you know a good article that will clearly and succinctly present the Biblical position on this subject I would greatly appreciate it.

For Christ’s Crown and Covenant

 

[larryjf]

Promoting homosexuality or the slaughter of innocent life is never merely a social issue, it is a Biblical and doctrinal issue.

In my own estimation it is always appropriate to leave a church that does not adhere to sound Biblical teaching. Without sound Biblical teaching it is not truly a church.

1 Cor 5:1-5 is clear that sexual immorality pollutes the church, and that it is cause for separation.

 

[salaam alaykoum]

David, I am wondering if this brother realizes that to stay there would be to deny one of the most important fundamental beliefs of Christianity - the Word of God being alone the rule of faith and practice. The Bible clearly speaks against abortion (under the 6th commandment) and against homosexuality (don't have the passages available off-hand). To take a "pro-" stance on these issues is to deny the Word of God itself. The fact of the matter is, those who are promoting and desiring to have this toleration in the denomination, are the schismatics. They have separated themselves from Truth. Those who are seeking to uphold the truth of God's Word, to uphold the Word itself are not schismatics.

I have often gained comfort from the testimony of our examples in the faith who said, We must obey God, rather than men. Those who seek to obey men or seek the praise and admiration of men rather than obey God and seek His approval make themselves schismatics as they are lovers of the world rather than lovers of God. They have separated themselves from God in this area and have made an alliance with his arch-enemy, Satan.

 

[Civbert]

If I recall correctly, "Christianity and Liberalism" is a really short book. He could read it in an afternoon I think.

 

[Timothy William]

Unbiblical views on abortion and homosexuality in denominations are a result of apostasy; denominations typically leave sound teaching on the Trinity and the like long before they drop their socially conservative views. Advise your Elder friend to reread Romans 1, as I am sure he has done many times, and ask he if he is sure the PCUSA is orthodox on the central doctrines of the faith. Though I haven't read it myself, Christianity and Liberalism sounds like it would be relevant here.

 

[BJClark]

Answerman;

I have heard about a few Elders and such that are afraid to leave the PCUSA for the same reason. They want to see if they can make changes from within, however, the problem with that belief is that by staying, they are in essence supporting those beliefs. Maybe not within their own heart, but thats what the world sees, thats what those around them see. Is that what he wants others to think?

Ask him, How does he believe he can change things from within? What is he doing now to try and bring about change? Does he believe he is any different than all the Pastors who left the denomation years ago when there was a split? Does he think they will listen to him now, when they wouldn't listen to those who came before Him??

I realize Matthew 18:15-17 is more about sins committed against a person, but couldn't they also be applied to a Church body in general? To the individual leaders who are taking this stance?

Another verse that comes to mind is about if they ignore the truth we are supposed to shake the dust off our feet and leave.

Is he so attached to the denomation that he can't leave?

Who is His faith in, God or the Denomation?

There are probably many within his own congregation who would be challenged to look at their own individual beliefs before God, if HE took a stand and left. But truth be told, they are looking at HIM and the other Elders and leaders who are staying, and saying, well, they are leaders they must know more than I do, so if they think it's right, then it must be right, so they stay too.

Challenge him in his leadership, and the direction he as a leader within a church is asking his friends and family to follow, and is it the right direction?

How does he see these things as just 'social issues'? When they affect the hearts of men, women and children, leading them astray, leading them to believe a lie? again, HOW are they JUST social issues??

Continue to challenge him, get him thinking deeper about these things before a JUST and Holy God, not just as a loving God who forgives sins, but one who is also Judge, one who calls His Children to Holiness.

Here is the situation. I have a friend here at work that is an elder in the PCUSA who is struggling with the issues facing that denomination (such as its pro-abortion stance and ordaining homosexuals). He seems willing to accept that if the denomination was wrong on essential doctrines such as the Trinity or justification that he would leave or recommend that the church leave the denomination but since their deviation is not on doctrine per se but on social issues that this does not reach that level. I keep telling him that the real battle was lost back in the early 1900’s when they went liberal and the PCA and OPC split off as a result. The elders in his church are making the argument that schism is a grievous sin and that they feel that the Biblical thing to do is stay in the denomination and keep fighting. I have recommended that a good start would be to read Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism but I don’t think he is willing to read a book on the subject just yet. He seems willing to read short articles or listen to MP3 audio sermons and lectures presenting the Biblical position on this subject. So I am asking for anyone that could type a brief defense of Biblical case for separation or if you know a good article that will clearly and succinctly present the Biblical position on this subject I would greatly appreciate it.

For Christ’s Crown and Covenant

 

[Theoretical]

This was my justification for remaining in the Methodist Church for so long, even though I obviously wasn't an elder or officer in any sense of the word. Nonetheless, I thought I could be a good theological influence on my peers - however, if the church is dead as a doornail, then why should one stay?

From what I understand of Presbyterian polity the battle is lost the moment the General Assembly (or Synod, depending on the denomination) officially tolerates heresy or wicked practice. It is one thing for individual presbyteries to promote heresies for a season (think the Louisiana one and Rev. Wilkens with regard to FV) while awaiting judgment of the controversy. That is an inherent flaw of Presbyterian government, I suppose, though I imagine the equivalent of an injunction against this teaching could be made at the GA level. Particularly with the fact that presbyteries and individual churches are financially independed of the GA (correct me if I'm wrong about this with the PCUSA), there is NO excuse to remain in this denomination. I know there are certain doctrinal breaking points where the PCA could absolutely require a split-off for individual churches to remain genuinely orthodox - say if FV is officially tolerated.

The battle in the PCUSA was lost in the 1930s or at the latest in 1967 when it formally ditched the WCF.

Oh, and as for doctrinal heresy against the Trinity: http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2006/06/pcusa_renames_t.html

There are probably many within his own congregation who would be challenged to look at their own individual beliefs before God, if HE took a stand and left. But truth be told, they are looking at HIM and the other Elders and leaders who are staying, and saying, well, they are leaders they must know more than I do, so if they think it's right, then it must be right, so they stay too.

This is a huge point - well said, Mrs. Clark.

 

[bookslover]

Unbiblical views on abortion and homosexuality in denominations are a result of apostasy; denominations typically leave sound teaching on the Trinity and the like long before they drop their socially conservative views. Advise your Elder friend to reread Romans 1, as I am sure he has done many times, and ask he if he is sure the PCUSA is orthodox on the central doctrines of the faith. Though I haven't read it myself, Christianity and Liberalism sounds like it would be relevant here.

Let me recommend Christianity and Liberalism to you, brother. Published in 1923 (and, as far as I know, it has never been out of print since), Machen's contention is simple: theological liberalism is not merely a "flavor" or "version" of Christianity, it is an entirely different religion altogether, because founded on humanistic principles instead of biblical ones.

Personally, I think it's the most important Christian book published last century, and just as relevant now as it was 83 years ago.

 

[Theoretical]

Let me recommend Christianity and Liberalism to you, brother. Published in 1923 (and, as far as I know, it has never been out of print since), Machen's contention is simple: theological liberalism is not merely a "flavor" or "version" of Christianity, it is an entirely different religion altogether, because founded on humanistic principles instead of biblical ones.

Personally, I think it's the most important Christian book published last century, and just as relevant now as it was 83 years ago.

- A great book, and especially useful in this case, since a PCUSA elder would be the one reading this book, given the controversies involved with Machen and Princeton Seminary, etc...

 

[Timothy William]

Let me recommend Christianity and Liberalism to you, brother. Published in 1923 (and, as far as I know, it has never been out of print since), Machen's contention is simple: theological liberalism is not merely a "flavor" or "version" of Christianity, it is an entirely different religion altogether, because founded on humanistic principles instead of biblical ones.

Personally, I think it's the most important Christian book published last century, and just as relevant now as it was 83 years ago.

Thankyou for the advice.

 

[ReformedWretch]

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=63006232159

 

[Pilgrim]

Here is the situation. I have a friend here at work that is an elder in the PCUSA who is struggling with the issues facing that denomination (such as its pro-abortion stance and ordaining homosexuals). He seems willing to accept that if the denomination was wrong on essential doctrines such as the Trinity or justification that he would leave or recommend that the church leave the denomination but since their deviation is not on doctrine per se but on social issues that this does not reach that level. I keep telling him that the real battle was lost back in the early 1900’s when they went liberal and the PCA and OPC split off as a result. The elders in his church are making the argument that schism is a grievous sin and that they feel that the Biblical thing to do is stay in the denomination and keep fighting. I have recommended that a good start would be to read Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism but I don’t think he is willing to read a book on the subject just yet. He seems willing to read short articles or listen to MP3 audio sermons and lectures presenting the Biblical position on this subject. So I am asking for anyone that could type a brief defense of Biblical case for separation or if you know a good article that will clearly and succinctly present the Biblical position on this subject I would greatly appreciate it.

For Christ’s Crown and Covenant

The issue is doctrinal. If your friend doesn't think so, he is either ignorant of the true situation or needs to examine whether his doctrine is sound. Decades ago the PCUSA begain ordaining elders and ministers who could not affirm the deity of Christ, for example. This article may be worth looking at.

 

[Theoretical]

The issue is doctrinal. If your friend doesn't think so, he is either ignorant of the true situation or needs to examine whether his doctrine is sound. Decades ago the PCUSA begain ordaining elders and ministers who could not affirm the deity of Christ, for example. This article may be worth looking at.

- Especially from one coming from a fellow mainline congregation.

 

[AV1611]

The elders in his church are making the argument that schism is a grievous sin and that they feel that the Biblical thing to do is stay in the denomination and keep fighting.

There is separation but also on the other hand there is discipline. The Church of England is in dire straights at the moment and has been for a while however I believe that it is best to stay and fight and try to remove the false teachers rather than just slinking off into the night. This is a very difficult issue and I think that as long as the individual does not compromise his/her beliefs then it really is up to the individual conscience set under the Word.

 

[kvanlaan]

What if there is only one church available to you? If you don't agree with what is coming from the pulpit but there is no alternative? (Sorry, a bit off-topic but still in the same general vein.) Leave to home church your family or stay and fight?

I am all for the stay and fight argument, but fighting without support, without believers praying for you in the wings, doesn't usually end well.

 

[gwine]

Christianity and Liberalism is available on line, too.

here

here

here

Many sites have it.